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Line vs. Salomon Rockering??

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inaba116
Posts: 414 - Karma: 24
So in the latest SIA video update Mike Douglas says that Salomon is the only company that rockers their skis in the mold, everyone else just bends them.  Is this true?  Does that mean Line makes the skis then bends them? That seems odd. 
Feb 7 2008 4:57PM
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mmckechnie
Posts: 1483 - Karma: 29
yeah i was wondering that as well, I would think if the companies did bend them afterwards it would be by a machine or something so that the were all the same
Feb 7 2008 5:02PM
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.makuma.
Posts: 2258 - Karma: 43
jea
Feb 7 2008 5:14PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
No.  As someone building skis right now, that whole concept is ridiculous.

They molds in the ski press have rocker.  They all do it in basically the same way.

Bending it afterward would be incredibly unreliable, make the ski prone to failure (think about the force needed to bend the ski, hold it there, and have it stay in place), and would basically require that  every single ski have metal in it so that the bend would stay.

so no, salomon is not the only company who incorporates a rocker mold during press.  They all do (this is, unless, some companies have some secret super awesome bending machine I have never heard about).
Feb 7 2008 5:14PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
bending afterwards doesn't last and destroys the cores. the only way to make a legit rockered ski is in the press so he almost definitely mistaken.
Feb 7 2008 5:15PM
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Tinga
Posts: 11349 - Karma: 2,333
yeah its gotta be by a machine so its even for even a pair of skis
Feb 7 2008 5:16PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
No machine to bend it.  It all occurs in the press, which has the same mold which has rocker in it.
Feb 7 2008 5:17PM
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Scolson
Posts: 2904 - Karma: 92
but mike douglas said so.
Feb 7 2008 5:18PM
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BvK
Posts: 868 - Karma: 11
ya that would be nearly impossible to permantly bend a ski out of the mold
Feb 7 2008 5:21PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
Yeah.  Just watched this video.

No offense to him, tons of respect, but in this case he is wrong.  Salomon is not the only company who rockers their skis to give them rocker.  The idea that every other rocker is being created by bending the skis is simply ridiculous.


Feb 7 2008 5:23PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
hopefully he means that the core is cut in a rockered shape before it's put into the press, instead of a normal tapering core that's flat.
Feb 7 2008 5:25PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
and I would go as far as saying I would be shocked to find out that there was one SINGLE company in the entire world that was making their rockered skis by bending after pressing.  That is just....an awful way of making skis.
Feb 7 2008 5:25PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
.....rocker shape?

The core is functionally the same in a rocker or unrockered ski.

The ski gets it rocker shape when in the press the mold shapes it to the correct camber and then the epoxy/fiberglass matrix holds the core to that shape.

The core would be essentially the same between the two (forget sidecut and flex profile changes, just in the most basic structural elements).

To shape the core into the rocker shape before pressing would require them to bend the wood, which I promise you is very hard.

It is this simple.  Rocker skis are made in a ski press with a rocker mold.  Construction is otherwise the exact same as other skis.
Feb 7 2008 5:28PM
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Scolson
Posts: 2904 - Karma: 92
I was actually being sarcastic.  He didn't really say anything of value in that video.

"this ski is stiffer, nice graphic, ummm, it's a price point ski.  This one has rocker and is for powder." etc.

Feb 7 2008 5:36PM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019
MIke Douglas was also the one calling every off-axis spin a misty. He is a boss though, much respek, lots of influence on the sport so he has the authority to say whatever he wants.
Feb 7 2008 5:38PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
Yeah.  Sort of figured that, but also figured there were people reading this thread that weren't sure.
Feb 7 2008 5:40PM
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OLDFRED
Posts: 194 - Karma: 9

I don't know anything about constructing skis...or how to rocker them, wherther in a mold or pressing them into a mold...but...I dont know..I think I remember in IDEA there was a bonus clip of Pollard making his EP Pro...and I'm pretty sure that it shows him pressing the rocker after..and not a mold.

I could be totally wrong about that and I'm sorry if I'm mistaken...I've watched IDEA a million times but not lately..

btw..just wondering what would be the difference in mold and not mold...is it longevity of the rocker or is it that it'll be stiffer?

Feb 7 2008 6:25PM
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ShadyHillGroup
Posts: 2881 - Karma: 213
thats a ski press....its how the materials get pressed together to make the skis, the bottom part is shaped in the way you want the ski to be camberd. then lots of pressure is applied and out comes a bacon egg and cheese
Feb 7 2008 6:34PM
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steevner
Posts: 4502 - Karma: 47
That's not what i was getting at.

I was proposing that salomon profiles their cores unlike regular companies do for regular camber skis
eg. this core
Click for larger image

I was thinking that they profile their cores by cutting them on top and bottom, so they are rockered before they even go into the press. No bending at all.
Feb 7 2008 6:39PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
I see what you are saying (that they profile from the top AND bottom, not just the top, correct?), but I suspect they still make their cores like any other cores.  The reason for this is that I think it would create issues getting the ski completely flat and would probably create inconsistencies in the flex.  Pretty sure 99% of ski cores are flat on the bottom to ensure a flat base and give the company a easier and more accurate way of predicting ski flex and insuring it is the same in all their skis.

And just to note, the core in the picture you put up is a normal stock ski core made just profiled with a planner.  It is flat on the bottom and the profile is created by varying the height of the stacks below the core.  I use a router bridge but may start using the method in the picture above to save time.
Feb 7 2008 8:01PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10448 - Karma: 10,021
Never seen Idea or the special features so cannot comment.  Maybe some people have been bending stuff, but to me that is probably the dumbest way to create rocker out there considering the type of equipment these companies have.

The mold is the base of the ski press that gives the ski its camber.  So basically....it is the tip and tail shape and the camber across the ski.

So a rockered ski will just have a mold that incorporates rocker into the mold.

The ski is the placed inside the mold, which is inside a ski press, and pressure is put on the ski to create the ski, and when all is said and done the ski will come out with a camber and tip/tail shape that (hopefully) perfectly reflect the shape of the mold.

Bending it seems like it would create extra stress that could damage the ski materials, would create inconsistencies in the rocker, would be a total pain in the ass, and would neglect basically everything that would go into planning and correctly constructing a ski.

Basically....bend skis to get rocker is what kids do when they are bored with some bungee cords in their basement.  A real ski manufacture would (as douglas said...and I hope everyone else does) create the skis with a mold in a ski press that turns out consistent, exact skis every time right out of the press.
Feb 7 2008 8:07PM
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johanblaze
Posts: 4987 - Karma: 345
Watch the special features in Idea. It shows Pollard building a proto ski, and obviously the rocker comes from the mold.
Feb 7 2008 8:28PM
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mike_d
Posts: 503 - Karma: 79
Ya, like some others said above....in Idea when pollard is pressing some EP Pros you can CLEARLY see that the "early rise" shape is built into the mold...

If Mike Douglas really said that and thats what he meant...then he is an idiot.
Feb 7 2008 9:28PM
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OLDFRED
Posts: 194 - Karma: 9
thx^^^^everyone for the explanations...amazing what our jib sticks go through before they end up under us.
Feb 8 2008 2:17AM
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