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Why is it so difficult

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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
............ for everyone of you to measure and mark your own damn skis with a sharpy showing the center line of where you want your bindings mounted?  You all are smart enough to apparently demand some type of unique placement, but not smart enough to assure that it happens.

I think every one of you who are complaining that someone screwed up are not accepting that you know more about what you want than they do.  Where did you get your idea of where you wanted them mounted?  Oh I know - you demoed skis all day long trying different positions until you found the one you like.   Yeah RIGHT!

You got your information from reading stuff here on NS correct?  Well read this,  mark the skis with a sharpy using a measuring tape of exactly where you want the center line of the binding to be mounted and quit complaining that someone screwed up.
Dec 14 2007 12:19AM
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skinnylove
Posts: 6807 - Karma: 167
Word
Dec 14 2007 12:21AM
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cmeriptahoe
Posts: 1785 - Karma: 12
finally someone came out and said it. but i still think that if the shop acknowledges where you asked to have your bindings mounted they should do it right. as long as you are explicit with your directions. but if you want to assure that they get it right then taking a sharpie to the skis is a good idea.
Dec 14 2007 12:21AM
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WONTON
Posts: 6951 - Karma: 55
this has been said countless times...kids are just retarded
Dec 14 2007 12:24AM
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Shadows
Posts: 8068 - Karma: 43
alright, i guess ill come out and ask it cause im curious.

when measuring twin tips with unequal height tips/tails (directional twins) such as TM's, if you simply measure it from tip to tail it will be off because of the height difference. The tip may rise faster then the tail. the tape measure will run longer on the tip than on the tail. granted, not by much, but still a little. do you have to take this into account when measuring or is it really insignificant?
Dec 14 2007 12:34AM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
I have drawn "mount here" lines on 3 pairs of skis at 3 different ski shops in ATLANTA(one of them is a super gaper shop, the others are chill) and never had a problem.  I would never take a chance and trust some random shop guy I dont know that he will mount 1 cm behind true center. 

In 2004, I once had a guy at the gaper ski shop tell me he couldn't mount my 2000 or 2001 salomon 1080 vinny d pros center cause it would take away the warrenty.  I pointed to the compressed edge, cracked edges, core shots, and numerous topsheet chips and said warrenty wasn't an issue, please mount on the line.  No problems even from someone without much knowledge of this shit.

It takes a couple minutes to do.  There's no reason not to do it(unless you actually KNOW the person mounting your skis)
Dec 14 2007 12:36AM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Exactly.   Kids think they know what they want, they don't, it's a psychological thing.  Only on a truly symetrical ski would it make sense to mount dead center.  I contend that if you want a ski to perform the same forward or switch, that you need to mount the binding in the center of the radius of the side cut.  Often this is where the manufacture will suggest as being center which is often not the true center of the overall length. 

It's like baggy clothes or skis that are too long, it looks really cool but does nothing for your performance.
Dec 14 2007 12:41AM
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Shadows
Posts: 8068 - Karma: 43
i dont disagree with you, but mounting at the center of the side cut still wont make a non symmetrical ski perform exactly the same switch/forward. the tip of the ski is wider then the tail so fakie turns are started different then forward turns. A big shovel at the tip when skiing fakie is completely different.


Dec 14 2007 12:47AM
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Shadows
Posts: 8068 - Karma: 43
but back to my original question. i guess what i shouldve asked is how to compensate for the difference in tail/tip height.
Dec 14 2007 12:51AM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Yeah Dan..  it comes down to personal preference at that point.  I would take your best guess and go with it depending on your own riding style.  A lot of park kids come from racing backgrounds, they naturally are pushing forward, where there are others who are lazily standing straight up.

I wouldn't worry so much about the tip and tail that doesn't touch the snow because you are not likely to feel the swing weight difference in the air, but you will likely feel the carving difference if you can carve switch effectively and your not over the top of the center of the radius of the side cut.  Hope that makes sense.

It boils down to personal preference.  take your best guess and if it doesn't feel right or feel like you can improve then have them changed to your second guess.
Dec 14 2007 12:58AM
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Ryno
Posts: 31125 - Karma: 336
hahaha....papa dishing out some thunder for the kiddies
Dec 14 2007 8:56AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
I've always mounted my skis at the recommended mounting point from the manufacturer.

They don't spend thousands on R&D and engineering sidecuts and designs for the hell of it.
Dec 14 2007 9:38AM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
So I have a question about exactly how they determine the placement of the bindings.

Say you want your bindings mounted at the recommended line. Do they line up the very 'center' of the binding on the recommended line, or do they line it up to the center of your balance point? Because your balance point is slightly forward of the center of your foot, near the balls of your feet. I know it isn't a huge difference but still could be 3-5 cm's or so depending on the person.
Dec 14 2007 10:59AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
There is a center-mark on the side of your boot sole (which is midsole), they line up that, and the recommended mount point from the manufacture.
Dec 14 2007 11:01AM
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Fish_Sandwich.
Posts: 9108 - Karma: 16
You are the man.  I still wear huge clothes but that's just cause I like the fit and I think it looks cool haha.

And even on a symmetrical ski that doesn't mean the mounting point is necessarily dead center.  It's not dead center on the Anthems, I don't think anybody really realized this.
Dec 14 2007 1:35PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
word.   now with that said I can relate more to rail tricks and hard switch carving and understand the need for some skiers to move the bindings forward of the reccommended mounting point.

BTW has anyone exprienced that they need to move thier DINS up after moving the bindings forward? 
Dec 14 2007 3:10PM
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Canuker
Posts: 4730 - Karma: 165

i dont get something, when you mark the line for center is shop susposed to put the line exactly in between the toe piece and the heal piece??

Dec 14 2007 3:19PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Release settings shouldn't alter due to binding positioning. It's along the same lines as release rates and ski length. The correlation is in the skier weight, and boot sole length which causes the pressure and leverage on the bindings. The ski length is not a meaningful variable.
Dec 14 2007 3:21PM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
I have to disagree. Mounting a non symmetrical ski center does make sense. You have to consider that non symmetrical skis are non symmetrical with respect to sidecut AND flex. You're just talking about sidecut. But there are advantages to having a centermounted ski with non symmetrical flex, that's the kind of ski I like to ride. You can ride switch much more easily, and spin better because it's centermounted, but because it isn't a symmetrical ski, you still have the flex pattern of a "regular" ski when you are riding normally outside the park. Most fully symmetrical skis don't have the kind of flex pattern I'd ever want to ride outside of the park, but by mounting a non symmetrical ski in the center, I get the kind of performance I like, considering my personal preferences for how a ski performs in the park and outside.

Some people might disagree with this, but it's just how I like my skis to ride. I ski 179 Seth's centermounted, and they are the perfect all around ski (for me).

And I have in fact ridden skis, with different flexes, recommended mounting, up to centermounting, and made my decision off that.
Dec 14 2007 3:43PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Really Freezed? I have symmetrical skis and LOVE how they ski groomers. Definitely not optimal for soft snow. I've skied Scratch FS centermounted outside of the park and HATED how they skied.

Guess it really is all personal preference.
Dec 14 2007 4:15PM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
I guess it is just personal preference, I can't really explain, I just like how the centered Seth's ski everywhere. Pretty much all symmetrical skis other than maybe the Fischer Addict are much too soft for me to be comfortable on all-mountain.

My ideal ski would be symmetrical sidecut, with a flex like the Seth's, but a little poppier.
Dec 14 2007 4:29PM
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ShadyHillGroup
Posts: 2881 - Karma: 213
i dont think your question ever got answered so here we go, take your skis to your work bench, or flat table, lay them down flat then put a book or two on the middle of the ski to ensure your skis flat against the table
no take a logn string lay in right next to the ski perfectly straight and mark off right where the tip and tail of the ski stop touching the surface of the table
now fold the string in half so the two points you marked off are touching each other, mark the middle of the string you just folded (it the crease in the string)
now lay the string back out against the ski mark on the sidewall of the ski the center, measure a couple more times when everything is perfect draw a line across the topsheet bring to shop say i want these mounted here , point to your line, and your good to go
Dec 14 2007 4:43PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
Solid method there in determining true center on a directional twin.

+ karma for you.
Dec 14 2007 4:47PM
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Shadows
Posts: 8068 - Karma: 43
^good idea, thank you.
Dec 14 2007 4:48PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Switch take offs were playing havoc last weekend after having the bindings moved up to true center on a set of T-halls. New Sally Z12's set at 7 - they preleased on a switch take off, moved to 8 and released on a forward, albeit backseat landing.  now at 9 for a 130lb kid @ 5'6".  To me, that is ridiculously high and I attribute the need for that setting due to the extra tail length torquing the binding.
Dec 14 2007 5:13PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Just out of curiosity, when you say center do you mean core or true?
Dec 14 2007 5:29PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
I don't know, although it seems logical, NO binding manufacturors take ski length into consideration when setting DIN. It's all skier height, skier weight, and skiing style.
Dec 14 2007 5:49PM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
PS - and I'd watch those settings and maybe have the binding release tested, because those settings are higher than my settins and I'm 6'0", 195lbs.
Dec 14 2007 5:50PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
In an ideal situation, yes there would be quite a bit more torque if you moved your bindings forwards, but it shouldn't matter on the takeoff. On a backseat landing, facing forwards, the torque would be greater, however, when your bindings are moved forwards your flex would change I think, which would also affect it. If the flex was exactly the same, then your torque would increase, but that doesn't take flex into account at all.
Dec 14 2007 5:55PM
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KRAMPUSNTROLLZ
Posts: 2715 - Karma: 355

WORD

Dec 14 2007 6:57PM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
True center. Took out a tape measure, measured the length of ski, mounted at half of that. 


^and about the "tail torque" and prereleasing, I would say the problem has nothing to do with the skis...it's that the bindings are Salomon Z12s. They don't have a reputation for staying on. My DIN is only 7.5 and I'm 6'1" 170 lbs, and I never prerelease. I have good bindings though (FKS 120).
Dec 14 2007 7:07PM
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eastchris
Posts: 674 - Karma: 16
my new sticks just got in and im waiting to go home to mark them up before I send them in for mounting. means a day or two less skiing but its not worth the fuck up
Dec 14 2007 7:10PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
interesting because he has a friend about the same skill, height, wieght and age and is also riding for salomon and his dad (former racer) also has his sons DINS way up 9 on the toe 10 on the heel.

hmmmmmm...
Dec 14 2007 8:11PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
good point.
Dec 14 2007 8:12PM
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bret
Posts: 2845 - Karma: 833
yeah salomon's aren't the best at staying on.  i wear z12s also, 5'5 125lbs with 8 toe and 8.5 heel.

but at the same time, i think almost any binding will let you out if you set a switch spin too early.  my friend had p18s on 10 and he would still come out in the toe sometimes unless he was really patient setting switch spins.

i don't know what to say about the forward landing though, could be those extra tailsies.
Dec 14 2007 8:26PM
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wiglaf
Posts: 4877 - Karma: 141
You are paying for a service, they should get it right. 
I pretty much have no faith in shop guys so i mark the line myself. Still, its bullshit that you are paying out your ass for a simple serivce and they still fuck it up.
Dec 14 2007 8:32PM
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Shadows
Posts: 8068 - Karma: 43
much of this debate isnt about techs fuckin the actual mount up. drilling skis isnt very hard to do although i know there are shops out there who still get it wrong. This is more about miscommunication. Kids say they want them "here" and the techs dont understand it.
Dec 14 2007 9:15PM
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GL830
Posts: 212 - Karma: 12
this thread is a breath of fresh air
and if I hear one more person say that a directional twin will still 'ski great all mountain' when mounted centre I am going to scream
Dec 14 2007 9:21PM
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comeatmebro
Posts: 10720 - Karma: 66
center mounted skis do ski fine all mountain, considering you can ski at all. they help me if anything, stay a little more forward down the fall line, and i can rip just as hard on them as a ski mounted at recommended...so start screaming
Dec 14 2007 9:29PM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
wow, i should have just added my stuff to this thread instead of wasting my time making a whole new one. i'm retarded.
Dec 14 2007 9:58PM
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GL830
Posts: 212 - Karma: 12
I'll refrain from screaming, but the performance of centred skis is definately sacrificed all mtn compared to a ski at its recommended mount (talking about non-symmetrical skis). Besides decreased performance in chopped/powder snow (a no-brainer), the sidecut doesn't perform as it's supposed to. Also, as someone who has a fairly forward skiing stance, I find them absolutely fucking horrible.
Dec 14 2007 10:25PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
You think you can because you probably have do not have the experience of tradiitional all mountain skiing set ups than you do with using your park skis all mountain.  Not sure if that makes sense.
Dec 15 2007 12:22AM
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fnstoked
Posts: 802 - Karma: 27
How would you keep the shop techs from mounting your bindings off center, width-wise on the skis? That's what happened to my mount.
Dec 15 2007 12:31AM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
that is definitly an amatuer f'up -  thats is uh.. wow....  I'm speechless.  What was the shops remedy for that?   Wait a month for new skis?  
Dec 15 2007 12:45AM
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fnstoked
Posts: 802 - Karma: 27
I haven't been able to talk to them about it. My skis are used and on their second mount, I don't know if I could get me new skis.
Dec 15 2007 1:13AM
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Pman13a
Posts: 3800 - Karma: 452
what i do is turn the one ski around, so they are right next to each other tail to tip
then you just mark the center of the mounting lines and its the center of the ski

i dont think it realy matters with the height
Dec 15 2007 4:32AM
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lyndon
Posts: 7266 - Karma: 128
I agree with you to some extent. Yes, the only ski that will preform at its best mounted true centre are the symetrical skis, as in Anthem, Invader, Addict, Habit, Wall, and a few others I'm missing. However, its isnt a bad thing to mount centre on a traditional sidecut ski. In my mind, once you mount forward of the recommended mark, you have already thrown off the sidecut, and your carving abilities. So, if you riding all park, and you want to mount -2cm from centre, that makes little sense to me.

However, I have noticed something on my skis. I rode my Scratches at true centre, and noticed carving regular was quite the challange. I rode my T-Halls at +1cm forward of true centre, and found switch carving exceptional, and regular carving better.

This year, I mounted my Ar6's +2cm forward of true centre, and its amazing! I can hold an edge regular so easily, and switch carving is amazing!


But, like you said, it all comes down to preference. It takes alot of trial and error to find out where you like your skis set.
Dec 15 2007 9:46AM
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t_rob
Posts: 6433 - Karma: 11,458
cut and pasted from my thread to make one better one.

whats up guys, i'm not writing for this thread to have it made a sticky but instead to tell kids why the shops messed up there mount. so if the shop messed up your mount and you didn't do all of these things on my list or the ones i missed then its your own fault.


did you have them right down on the slip what your mount point was?

The reason for doing this is at larger ski shops the people who sell you your skis won't be the same ones mounting them and most of the time they won't know what your talking about and if they information doesn't make it back to the backroom your ski won't be mounted where you want it to be.

Did you draw a line on your skis if you wanted a mount other then a the lines already drawn on your ski?

The reason for doing this is that chances if you say +5 on a mount or some number like that, the guy mounting the skis is not going to waste his time measuring out your 5 cm's and that makes it past if he knows what +5 means in the first place. And if he's making minimum wage and there are many other skis to be mounted, he's just going to do your mount as fast as possible in hopes of getting off work earlier.

Did you explain the importance of where you wanted your mount?

I have found that when i go into ski shops and talk with the guys, they take me a lot more seriously if i know what i'm talking about and justifying it correctly. They will take you seriously and if they assume you don't know what your talking about, they'll assume you won't know a fucking difference if your mount is right place.

When i got my reno jibs mounted I told them them i wanted them mounted on the pink line, made sure it was written down on the slip, and told them why i wanted it mounted there. The guys listened, were kind of intrigued and then went and mounted them. I got exactly what i wanted. WHy? because I took all of the steps i possibly could have to make sure they didn't fuck it up.


So if your still bitching that your mount was fucked up, take a look back up to my 3 steps to a mount where you want it to be. Don't assume a shop will do something if you tell them to do it. ski shops are big and there can be miscommication that can keep your mount away from where yo
Dec 15 2007 10:43AM
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SkierX
Posts: 16253 - Karma: 538
While I agree that those steps should be followed, I do not put the blame on the customer if a verbal miscommunication occurs. The shop needs to work on that.

I do believe that the other steps should all be followed though.
Dec 15 2007 11:14AM
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freezed
Posts: 12973 - Karma: 500
Salomon bindings...If someone that size had their DIN on 10 on a FKS binding, they'd hardly ever release at all.

I'm not like a binding tech or anything though, this is just from my experience.
Dec 15 2007 12:31PM
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Canuker
Posts: 4730 - Karma: 165

After you mark down the line where you want the skis mounted where do they put the bindings??do they make sure that the line is exactly inbetween the toe and heal pioece ro do they put the toe piece on the line or what?? kinda a noob question, but i dont get where they put it.

Dec 21 2007 12:38PM
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