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Think you know the law?

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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
I see so many people on here talk about how you should know the law, otherwise you can get fucked by police.  so I decided to clarify things for people

hard evidence isn't important in misdemeanor crimes.  in court, its the cops word against yours.  I got busted for trespassing even though there was no evidence I was ever on the property.  my car was parked outside a state park.  that was evidence enough that I was on the property.  real life isn't like TV.  low crimes are processed like a machine, you aren't going to take them to trial because its not worth it.  make a deal with the prosecutor, and thats it.

security guards can actually hold you.  even though they have citizen's arrest powers, in reality there is a trust placed in them by police to carry out their duties.  try running from a security officer.  they will take you down.  I have seen it happen, and I've had one threaten to do it to me (I had done absolutely nothing wrong and I told him that, and said I wanted to leave the mall)  i have discussed this with a cop before.  you can sue the security company but you are unlikely to win unless they really hurt you.

try declining a search of your car.  cops aren't going to just respect your decision and rights as a citizen and go about their business.  declining a search means you are guilty, in their eyes.  sometimes you can decline it and theres nothing they can do.  but where I live, in virginia, if you decline they will bring in a k9 unit.  cops will often use queues to get the dog to bark, which allows them to search your vehicle.

I wrote this because I am tired of hearing people's naive misconceptions of reality.  this is real life, and if its obvious you are guilty, you;re guilty.  you aren't given the benefit of the doubt when you decline a search; that is to say, the officer is not going to believe you are just a smart citizen asserting your rights, they are going to believe you are hiding something, which you probably are.  knowledge of the law can help you, but don't believe that life is like law and order.


the way our justice system handles some kids getting busted with pot vs. a high profile murder case is entirely different.
Dec 9 2007 5:51PM
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uni-corn
Posts: 13846 - Karma: 651
That dog thing is fucked up.


Good info though
Dec 9 2007 5:55PM
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Gavajabra
Posts: 723 - Karma: 14
Partly true but another "I didnt do anything and the cop was harrassing me" threads, /sigh. I've been talked to/pulled over by the cops/security guards several times and nothings happend to me.
Dec 9 2007 5:58PM
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slaydave
Posts: 1697 - Karma: 62
you are correct...
Dec 9 2007 5:59PM
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Microcosm
Posts: 4765 - Karma: 153
I agree mostly with you here. not everything is going to go by the books and go how you want it to-- regardless of whether you actually did something wrong. but it's still important to know when they're taking it too far. and by knowing your rights you can think about a better way to handle the situation.
Dec 9 2007 6:02PM
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R-Bertsch
Posts: 4719 - Karma: 20
yepppp thats funny man, i've been in almost the same situations as you, not at a mall but at meijer, i knew they could touch me if i ran, but i followed his directions and told him not to lay a fucking finger on me or i would press assault charges, but this was after a solid half hour of me talking shit to his face in a tiny ass room.



my 2 cents for this thread is, after going through all the motions(getting arrested, going to court, etc) it definitely showed me that the justice system shits on teenagers involved in misdemeanor crimes, it really is your word against the cops. and if you get in trouble, dont try to just pay the fines and take the hit on your record, tell your parents about it and get a good lawyer, my lawyer got theft charges dismissed just because he was tight with the prosecutor.
Dec 9 2007 6:42PM
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ijibgoremtn
Posts: 4221 - Karma: 13
i agree with you because that shit happens to me and my friends all the time i fucking hate cops
Dec 9 2007 7:14PM
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ktollefson_1080
Posts: 2061 - Karma: 183
True.
I know this is directed at the thread i made. but as long as you make it clear that you said you can not search or anything like that it helps. once in court with a good lawyer you will win. because if ur rights were broken then they cant use any of that.

but yes. you are correct.
Dec 9 2007 7:20PM
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RobotTom
Posts: 544 - Karma: 21
fuck the police.
Dec 9 2007 8:59PM
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Dr.Dank
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 51
just because you dont let them search you or your car, that isnt enough for them to search your car. i doubt that they would call a k9 for no reason. ive gotten searched by cops before for trespassing and the only reason they could was because we were trespassing. we all had weed on us but they didnt search my shoe thank god.

they arent going to waste their time calling a k9 unit just to stick it to a couple of kids. that cue shit is a myth because if the dog did bark but you were clean they could get in trouble.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

Dec 9 2007 9:08PM
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doublexl
Posts: 8407 - Karma: 27
i am really sick of hearing this as well. if your house got broken into and all your shit got lifted you wouldnt be OK with it. youd flip out and call the cops. so dont say fuck the police because the justice system is a shitty one that will fuck you over, more or less. so dont say fuck da police. fuck being a dumbass and getting caught.
Dec 9 2007 9:10PM
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magic_steve
Posts: 544 - Karma: 10
stuff like this makes me really really mad. we dont have shit for rights.
Dec 9 2007 9:15PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,093
The searching car part is wrong. I had a cop ask me to search my car and i said no. Why? Because they had no reason, we were a car full of high school srs and they thought we were dumb. I had weed on my lap and my window open (i wasnt driving my car my friend was) and she said "oh spring break trip huh?do you guys have any alcohol or drugs in the car?" I replied "no" and she said "than can i take a look in your car?" and replied " ah no" and she said "are you sure i cant just take a peak?" i replied "yes" and she said "well ok, have a nice evening".

I find that to be ridic that they can just bring a k9 unit to the scene with no visual evidence of drugs. I find that so ridic that i think it doesn't actually happen. I dont feel like they could get away with it and dont say you had some friend that had it happen, cause obviously he was too dumb to fight it and just took it.
Dec 9 2007 9:18PM
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396222687862
Posts: 0 - Karma: 350
thats why, when i start driving, if i get pulled over and have nothing to hide and get asked to search. i'll assert my rights. go ahead and try me, i have nothin to hide.
Dec 9 2007 9:18PM
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Owen.
Posts: 1134 - Karma: 13
the website with the whole 'just say no' thing going on is key.
Its so annoying when the ypolice try to be sneaky....
Dec 9 2007 9:21PM
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californiagrown
Posts: 9794 - Karma: 2,014
I have been in the car when my friend refused consent to search and they threatend to cal the k9 unit, and guess what they came.  Got popped with an eighth, when i probobly could have just given to the cop who would have confiscated it and sent us on our merry way.  you have to know the situation.  And by the way experienceing a search or non search one time doesn't mean that every state county and city does things the same way.  Just don't be stupid about what you do, and if you break the law, expect to get punished.  You are risking your freedom in exchange for pleasure (drugs alcohol etc.).  you know the rules, don't bitch when it comes back to bite you and for gods sake don't ever ever snitch even on someone you don't like or know.  If you are doing something illegal look at the risk reward ratio and accept it if you get fucked.
Dec 9 2007 9:50PM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
actually it happened to me.  ive posted about it before, hate to beat a dead horse, but the exact words were;

cop: would you mind if I took a peek around your car?

me: umm do you have to?  I'd rather not, just want to get home (i knew full well i didnt have to consent to a search)

cop: based on your response, I'm going to call in a k9 unit because an honest citizen would have nothing to hide




the point of this post isnt railing about cops or our justice system.  its just that some people on here need to wake up and be a little more realistic about things
Dec 9 2007 9:52PM
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argo801
Posts: 602 - Karma: 39
sorry bro, but it seems as you dont know the law.  I go to a police academy and we definately learn how to do shit by the books. For example, the car searching thing, theres not a decline the search and the cops go on thier way, dont you think there is a reason they asked you to search your car, therefore there is reasonable suspision.  They dont just do it for the hell of it, you dont realize how much paperwork goes with this job.  Its not fun filing out papers.  Its an officers job to protect and make sure people obey the laws.  They must have had a reason to think you werent when they searched your car.  And about the small crimes in court, yeah it is a cops word against the plaintiffs, sometimes its not legit and sometimes people do get falsely convicted of crimes, but they are part of the judicial system, so wouldnt you believe someone in your own line of work.  Its like if you owned a business, you would most like believe that your employee is being honest and does his job to the best of his abilities.  I realize sometimes its not legit sometimes, but officers do try to do good and help communities.
Dec 9 2007 10:14PM
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AltaPilgrim4973
Posts: 217 - Karma: 11
you guys got lucky. really lucky. the cop must have just gotten a good vibe from you guys. 9 time out of 10 if you say no, they WILL call in a k9 unit. if your totally compliant and polite and they ask to search, and you say yes, chances are they will go back to their cruiser for a few minutes and then walk back with all your info and send you on ur way. if you say yes, generally they arent going to actually search you. that show them that you DO in fact have nothing to hide. trust me, it works. ive had that work twice, once when i was driving alone, and was clean. once when i was driving with a few friends who were alll tripping face, and had like 2 handles of vodka in nalgenes. as far as other shit, dont do anytihng if you dont realize and expect the consequence. and dont think that just because you live in a small town that the cops wont catch you because they dont know how. if they dont know what they are doing, then they will just call in the state cops who know their shit no matter where you live. and dont think this is comming from a little spoiled shit like most of you reading this probably are. if it wasnt for a GOOD lawyer, ide have 2 felonies on my record inluding grand theft and a larsony. we thought that they wouldnt catch us because we didnt leave a trace, but we got cocky and got sloppy. i dont know what happened, but one day i wake upp to a knocking at my door, and its 4 state troopers with a search warrent. basicallly, if you do shit enough, eventually you WILL get caught. and for god sakes, get your own lawyer, the ones they give you suck. and hope that they arein with the prosecuter. the prosecuter happpend to be my lawyers wife, lol.
Dec 9 2007 10:18PM
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[Toby]
Posts: 766 - Karma: 10
this thread is about me.

Your right cops can and do make shit up, but you still need to use every legal right you have to stop them, i forgot what security story i was talking about. But yes if you run from them they can and will hold you but they can not demand you to do anything. And most stores will not even let security guards be aggressive because they are afraid of lawsuits.

In short i was right and you need to protect your rights, just because the cops may be better and out play you doesnt mean you should just give up your constitionally given rights.
Dec 9 2007 10:21PM
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argo801
Posts: 602 - Karma: 39
oh yea, just becasue you say no to a search, doesnt mean they dont have the right to do so.  There is a scale of suspision and suspect.  You learn that in a highschool government class. If you are high enough up in that scale of reasonable suspect, they have the right to search your car, so just simply say, what was i doing to give you reasonable evidence that i would be doing anything ilegal.   Then if there is none they will simply be very suprised you know the law, and let you on your way.  And if they do have reason, you better just cooperate, becasue the search is legit.
Dec 9 2007 10:27PM
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thegreyarea
Posts: 3265 - Karma: 34
That's not entirely true. I'm not saying this to debate the topic. I think as you become a cop and do the job for a while, your views will change.

I like the way Barry Cooper describes being a cop. Almost every cop joins the force to legitimately protect and serve. However, with every civilian incident you grow an addition to adrenalin and you actually seek out that addiction. It makes the time you spend filling out paperwork worthwhile.

There're numerous accounts where cops train dogs to false positive on cars to claim reasonable suspicion. If they don't find anything, however, they aren't in trouble (someone above said that). I don't trust much of Barry Cooper's videos, but the Never Get Busted Again makes this point very clear.

On the other hand, groups like the ACLU ALWAYS tell you to deny a search, even if you have nothing to hide. You are better off shutting up, getting a lawyer, and fighting it in court.

The first poster here is right. You guys really should watch the ACLU's Busted and Barry Cooper's Never Get Busted Again. If anything, it's good info.
Dec 9 2007 10:31PM
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[Toby]
Posts: 766 - Karma: 10
and this has happend to me, and in the situation i was in i did provide the officer with the weed that was in the car. I did this because i knew my rights and i knew that the officer had reason to search.

But during that same stop they attempted to get me to answer loads of questions that i refused to answer without a lawyer present. The cops got pretty mad and tried to convince me that i didnt need one, but know my rights i was able to stand up for myself.
Dec 9 2007 10:32PM
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AltaPilgrim4973
Posts: 217 - Karma: 11
listen to the man, he knows his shit. (my dads a cop)
Dec 9 2007 10:33PM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
"learn how to do shit by the books."

it is entirely within the books what they did.  it doesnt make it right.  heres how it went down

cop: license and registration please



(I hand the stuff to him, stuff goes on for a little while)

cop: you seem nervous.  are you high?

me: absolutely not, I don't do that.  I am just nervous because I really dont want to get a ticket.  I had to go to driving school last ticket i got, and it was awful.

cop: smells like someone has been smoking something

(at this point i was smoking a cigarette.  my car did not smell like smoke at all, I dont smoke pot in it)

cop: would you mind if I peeked around the car?



so theres the probably cause.  thats what happened.  its legal what he did, I had long hair and a longboard in the back, everyone stereotypes, including cops.  how I looked was the "probable cause," and the bullshit about it smelling like smoke was made up.  moral of the story: dont look like a stoner.
Dec 9 2007 11:56PM
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eheath
Posts: 61603 - Karma: 123,093
I was in yellowstone park, on a like sunday night with 3 other 18 year old kids coming from a spring break trip. We were going 85 in a 55(which she didnt give us a ticket for???). They were trying to bust us with something because most likely we had alco or drugs since we came from spring break. She was like "oh spring break, partying eh?". We didn't get lucky, we were just smart. Most people who get the k9 unit called on them for weed (and get caught) are because their car smells like weed or something like that. Most cops will do what they can legally to try to get dumb kids in trouble, but where i live (utah and montana) cops really don't seem to be dicks like big city cops etc.
Dec 10 2007 3:16AM
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AltaPilgrim4973
Posts: 217 - Karma: 11
lol, soo basically you got dellayed for 5 min but got out of a nasty speeding ticket, thats awsome. and yea it does depends on the area. cops around here would calll the k9 in a second if you said no.
Dec 10 2007 3:26AM
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argo801
Posts: 602 - Karma: 39

by no means and i saying that every single case that you guys had there was reasonable suspect, im just saying thats how its supposed to be done.  Im not trying to start stuff on here or some huge debate, im just informing people on how police are tought.   And the andrenaline thing about pulling people over is new to me.  I often ride around with the local cops in my town to get a feel of what it will be like when i graduate and its definately not like that lol   I dont know where you heard that but it made me laugh.  My cousin who is a cop hasnt written a ticket in one and a half years, and the majority of the force here doesnt write them unless your indangering others.  Not all cops go by the book, but the ones who dont can be shut down by someone who is familiar with the laws, so instead of saying cops are bitches and all that stuff, just read up on search and sezure.  Im not saying all your cases were legit, but by the law, it sounds as if they were.  So therefore instead of complaining about cops complain about lawmakers.

Dec 10 2007 10:27AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,142
“you can sue the security company but you are unlikely to win unless they really hurt you.”
Wrong. You simply sue them for unlawful imprisonment. If they were wrong to hold you in the first place, you’ll win... of course, if they were acting in the honest performance of their duties you probably won’t GET all that much (no punitive damages, thanks to Ashland Dry Goods co. v. Wages), maybe just a couple hundy... But you will win.

“but where I live, in virginia, if you decline they will bring in a k9 unit. cops will often use queues to get the dog to bark, which allows them to search your vehicle.”
Well then where you live, you need to carry a handycam, stand 10 feet back and point it at him and the car. If he scrapes his foot as a cue, he’s going to lose his badge. Alternative suggestion: don’t live in Virginia. Most of the kids you're talking to live in states where the police, by and large, obey the law and respect peoples' rights a little more than that.

The thing is, small crimes are absolute liability crimes, which means they don’t have to prove fault (that you intended to commit the act in question, or were reckless) as long as there’s no penalty of imprisonment and as long as the legislation in question stipulates that they don't have to (how it works here, and I can’t imagine it works any different there). They do, however, still need to prove you committed the prohibited act beyond a reasonable doubt, and “the cop’s word against yours”, or your car being parked near somewhere you’re not supposed to be, just won’t cut it.

Have you ever actually tried this? Making a court appearance on one of these charges? You seem to get a lot of them.
Dec 10 2007 10:32AM
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beer.
Posts: 3096 - Karma: 44
TO JD (I cant quote it, bugged)

yeah thats what I meant, suing isnt really worth it unless they hurt you.

and yes virginia sucks ass.  well, mostly northern va.  we have no crime and a bajillion cops, and they dont really have anything to do.  I am not saying I should be able to freely break the law.  I am just saying its kinda ridiculous, my mom saw a kid who got caught shoplifting the other day in town and there were six squad cars.  SIX.  like what the fuck, do we really need that many cops?

the other end of the county has the biggest population of MS-13 in the country.  its too bad we cant send some of our cops over there, I bet they could use them.

Dec 10 2007 12:12PM
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doritos
Posts: 7368 - Karma: 53
Mm, sort of true... I've never had my car searched, and I've had a total of six different cops from five different situations try their damndest to get inside it. If they ask you why you won't let them search it, you just tell them you have personal stuff in your car that you'd rather not have inspected by someone you don't even know. It's actually believable, and has saved me numerous times.

The law can pretty much always fuck you. You're right. That being said, if you do know your rights and you use them in a believable and polite way, you can usually get away with misdemeanors. You just have to be smart, wise to the tricks cops try to pull, and most importantly - stubborn as hell.
Dec 10 2007 12:21PM
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Yauch
Posts: 1685 - Karma: 62

Virginia cops are fucking faggots. Officer zed from pulp fiction is a Virginia cop. The law in virginia is the most terrible thing i can possibly imagine.

Dec 10 2007 4:00PM
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DeSena
Posts: 4126 - Karma: 1,352
what if all cops were like the cops in super bad
Dec 10 2007 4:04PM
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Microcosm
Posts: 4765 - Karma: 153
I read this article in a newspaper written by a cop talking about getting out of tickets like speeding etc. he said don't have a grateful dead sticker on the car (damn it) and for girls just cry. haha
Dec 10 2007 6:07PM
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Dr.Dank
Posts: 1642 - Karma: 51
I wish. That would be the greatest thing ever.

seth rogen said they had a real cop on set but they fired him the first day because they didnt give a shit if they were realistic or not
Dec 10 2007 9:58PM
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gson
Posts: 235 - Karma: 41
Talk about some power hungry cops...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lARW9r5V29s
that shit is an example of how gay some cops can be, and how they will do anything to show power and dominance.
its so ridiculous
Dec 10 2007 10:52PM
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danbrown
Posts: 11939 - Karma: 21,826
If I ever get pulled over, I really want the cop to ask me if he can search my car.  I don't smoke pot and I never drive drunk, and rarely ever have alcohol in the car.  I just want to see what happens if I say no and I'm completely sober and have nothing to hide. If he asks why, I'd just say "because I wouldn't be a good citizen if I wasn't exercising my rights to the fullest" or something along those lines.
Dec 10 2007 11:11PM
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