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KilaTsunami
October, 2024

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Tear down Guantanamo Bay

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*DrewT*
Posts: 7768 - Karma: 481

http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=9eLFLNNsHgLHJXJ&s=jvL5JkPUKjJWK8PYJxF&m=klLXLgP0KkJ6H

For those of you who don't know what guantanamo bay is, it's a prison where prisoners are kept and tortured with no need for evidence or a fair trial.  Check the now you know page on this site.

The fact that this place exists is disgusting, is our society degressing?  This spits in the face of human rights, don't let it go on, sign the petition and take down a pixel

Dec 5 2007 1:00PM
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Itsbackfliptime
Posts: 18901 - Karma: 75
I don't get how its in Cuba since we don't have very good relations with Cuba.
Dec 5 2007 1:05PM
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DANETRON
Posts: 6671 - Karma: 137
Well we would never allow such a thing to go on in the good ole USA now would we? Most likely we took the land anyway
Dec 5 2007 1:31PM
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BrokenBones
Posts: 1275 - Karma: 703
It's not in Cuba.  We own that bay, we took/stole it from them a while ago.
Dec 5 2007 2:17PM
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Way*Mo
Posts: 648 - Karma: 2,140
You are lame. Have you ever been to Guantanamo? Then don't believe something just cause you saw it on the internet. Its people like you who pretend to be informed that is the problem with America. I am not saying that torture has never taken place at Gitmo, but I am not going to post threads on NS because I came across one video clip. Did you even know that Gitmo's primary purpose is a naval base? We were given it when we helped Cuba overthrow imperialism and become a free country in the early 1900's. Quit being a philistine.
Dec 5 2007 2:22PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
but it's so convenient! A whole facility of our own where we can torture people!
Dec 5 2007 2:22PM
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ryano
Posts: 4465 - Karma: 1,535
agreed. although i dont really get the philistine part. haha


why do people have to come on here (a SKI website) and make it all political? its fricking stupid. sure this is NON SKI GABBER, but stop with the dumb political threads. all it does is ruin the fun and happy threads and people get in dumb arguments. i'm sure there are thousands of other political sights that you can post on there if you really decide to believe whatever the hell you read on the internet. so please do it somewhere else....end rant
Dec 5 2007 3:02PM
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[tightpants]
Posts: 1529 - Karma: 17
The reason people bring up these threads is that this stuff is important whether you think so or not.  To think that our country is allowed to blatently violate the human rights that we so animately stand for all in the name of "freedom" is bullshit. There is nothing free about ripping innocent people away from their families, locking them in a prison in cuba and torturing them for confessions of crimes they never committed.  And this DOES go on.  Take the time to listen to the testamonies of the few lawyers that have been allowed to visit Guantanamo Bay.  The stuff they've seen and heard is sickening.  But you probably won't do that because you don't give a shit.
Dec 5 2007 3:12PM
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*DrewT*
Posts: 7768 - Karma: 481
ya dude you're right Amnesty international is just some stupid little non-legit organisation that just makes shit up so they can get guantanamo bay torn down because really they want............ I dunno


The tittle of the thread made the content of the thread incredibly obvious, Are you acctually upset that the thread title is taking up .5 square inches of your computer screen.

I don't exactly give a shit how that piece of land came into the hands of the US, maybee they stole it just like they stole most of texas and everything westward of it from mexico.  I dont care what I care about is that your government is torturing and imprisoning potentially innocent people, and even if they're not innocent, they still don't deserve what they're getting

Just cause you don't give a shit about the world around you doesn't mean nobody else on this site does ass hole
Dec 5 2007 3:31PM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,142
Get to know your fellow countrymen!

"At Wednesday’s night debate for Republican presidential candidates, one of the more notable exchanges pitted Mitt Romney and John McCain on the issue of torture. Romney, flustered, struggled to explain his position on waterboarding. McCain, confident, claimed the high ground: “I would hope that we would understand, my friends, that life is not 24 and Jack Bauer. Life is interrogation techniques which are humane and yet effective.”

The crowd in the auditorium applauded. The collection of undecided Republican voters GOP pollster Frank Luntz assembled for a focus group was far less pleased.

Now, for the uninitiated: dials are little hand-held machines that enable a focus group member to register instantaneous approval or disapproval as the watch a candidate on TV. There are limitations to the technology: all a candidate has to do is mention, say, Abraham Lincoln and the dials go off into the stratosphere. Film of soaring eagles will have the same effect. But the technology does have its uses. […]

When John McCain started talking about torture — specifically, about waterboarding — the dials plummeted again. Lower even than for the illegal Children of God. Down to the low 20s, which, given the natural averaging of a focus group, is about as low as you can go. Afterwards, Luntz asked the group why they seemed to be in favor of torture. “I don’t have any problem pouring water on the face of a man who killed 3000 Americans on 9/11,” said John Shevlin, a retired federal law enforcement officer. The group applauded, appallingly."
Dec 5 2007 3:36PM
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killabees
Posts: 8558 - Karma: 494

my thoughts exactly

Dec 5 2007 3:38PM
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sniper_6
Posts: 1919 - Karma: 1,573
Click for larger image
Dec 5 2007 3:51PM
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*DrewT*
Posts: 7768 - Karma: 481
k for some rason JD it won't let me quote you

Not even sure what you're trying to say by that post but the part about pouring water on the face of a man who killed 3000 people is slightly different than what's going on.  They're not torturing murderers, maybee some of the people being contained there are criminals, however many of the people kept there have had no trial and absolutly ZERO evidence saying they're a terrorist.  Torture is primative and it disgusts me that our society can allow it to happen.


I'm acctually appauled by this site right now.  Are you people acctually in favor of torture?

Sorry for disturbing your happy little lives on this site by hitting you with a dose of what your fucking douche bag president is doing but maybee you should start looking at the world around you a bit instead of wasting your lives away without a care in the world

fuck I need a joint right now
Dec 5 2007 3:57PM
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Quinny
Posts: 3477 - Karma: 163
Can't we just eliminate the torture...or are all your hearts dead set on closing it down and lettering them go?
Dec 5 2007 4:09PM
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Onlyexstasy
Posts: 388 - Karma: 10
I am in favor of torture...not for the reason that I get my jollies off on people suffering or inflicting pain.  But in many of these cases the criminals/terrorists that are being held for their crimes are already expecting to die.  It goes with the whole suicide bomber principle.  For example, if a terrorist had hidden a bomb in a major US city and we apprehended him; he would be expecting to die anyways.  Would we let our judicial process handle the criminal and let thousands of innocent civilians die?  Torture in that situation would be the only means to recieving the crcitical information.  I just feel in certain circumstances torture is necessary.
Dec 5 2007 4:13PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
then where would we put them?  i suppose waterboarding and sleep deprivation pales in comparison to getting your neck sawed off with a rusty knife.  i couldn't care less.  they are prisoners of war. 
Dec 5 2007 4:16PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
The problem with that is that unless there's something substantial that is prevented, such as the would-be attack on Fort Dix, it's difficult to tell what is true and what is said to please those doing the torture. NPR actually just got in a bunch of heat because one of their reporters reported, first hand, on an interrogation session that followed obvious torture, though it wasn't clear if it was legit information or if it was fabricated by the prisoner to please his captors.
Dec 5 2007 4:26PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
linkski!

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3206
Dec 5 2007 4:27PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Uh, I believe the article JD posted was to point out the ignorance of US politicians and voters. Not as a parallel of his personal views.
Dec 5 2007 4:38PM
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*DrewT*
Posts: 7768 - Karma: 481
Ok thanks for the clarification
Dec 5 2007 5:04PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
We never declared a war since WWII. Besides that, prisoners of war are still supposed to be treated as stipulated by the Geneva conventions.
Dec 5 2007 5:06PM
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Krush
Posts: 1312 - Karma: 12
the only reason why we havnt"declared war" is because the pres can do what he want militarily for the first 90days, then congress votes. same thing happened in iraq
Dec 5 2007 5:21PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
no, sorry, but until they adhere to the laws and rules of war then they don't get prisoner of war status.

so until they stop acting like piece of shit cowards and use the citizen population to help themselves survive they don't get prisoner of war status which is there to protect their rights.  If they don't wear a uniform or make themselves distinguishable then they don't receive prisoner of war status and are exempt from the geneva convention.

look at article 4.1.2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

further more look at the qualifications for prisoner of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war
Dec 5 2007 5:31PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
of the third geneva convention.
Dec 5 2007 5:32PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
So, they're not prisoners of war. You just completely reversed your position.
Dec 5 2007 5:32PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
yea i was wrong, but im still right.
Dec 5 2007 5:34PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Thats a leap of logic I'm not prepared to take.
Dec 5 2007 5:36PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
forget i said prisoners of war in my first post, because i did more research and provided links that cannot receive that status because they don't adhere to the rules of the geneva convention, so in reality i was wrong about them being prisoners of war, but im still right because your "geneva convention stipulates" rhetoric does not protect them.  so to conclude, i was wrong, but im still right.


Dec 5 2007 5:40PM
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Itsbackfliptime
Posts: 18901 - Karma: 75
its still on the island of cuba though. Its just weird because they must use at least some of the cuban resources, like water and I can't imagine cuba letting us do that.
Dec 5 2007 5:43PM
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twintipteles
Posts: 2954 - Karma: 13
How do you know that if they aren't allowed to speak with lawyers or charged with anything. Many of the people in Guantanamo were not apprehended fighting with the Taliban or anything close to what would make them prisoners of war. Many are American or British civilians who were seized off the street.
Dec 5 2007 5:43PM
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*DrewT*
Posts: 7768 - Karma: 481

There are prisoners being kept because of suspicion, nothing more than that.  Pretty much Bush is taking a giant shit all over the constitution

Dec 5 2007 5:49PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
I'm curious to know where you people get all of your 'credible' information. It sounds to me that alot of people are just jumping on the bandwagon here.

Personally, I'm not necessarily for or against torture. In some aspects, i think it could be a necessary evil, given the correct set of circumstances. On the other hand, performing torture on innocent civilians is obviously wrong on many levels.

To the person a few posts above me, he claims that "It would be different if Guantanamo were filled with terrorists, instead of innocent British and American civilians off of the streets." Or something to that effect, I'm sure it's not exact and I don't care to check. Point being, I would love to see where you get your information. If there was some credible source showing and depicting these events occurring, I might believe it to be true. I'm sure however, that such information would be all over the media. Or maybe not, maybe the government is stopping them?! (CONSPIRACY THEORY!) Haha..right. Pulling civilians off the streets and torturing them sounds a bit absurd to me. Not only is it some psycho KGB shit from the Great Purging..but what's the point? Would you honestly expect them to have any 'top secret' information about terrorist organizations abroad? I think not.

So please, to everyone with their panties in a twist over the fact that Guantanamo is Filled with innocent civilians being tortured with no reason, I'd love to see your credible sources of information. As of now, I'm just seeing a lot of bandwagon jumping and wikipedia articles being thrown about, can't say it's very convincing.
Dec 5 2007 6:00PM
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[tightpants]
Posts: 1529 - Karma: 17
Well, since they're not Americans he isn't technically shitting on the constitution. But I would definately say that he is shitting all over the human rights our nation is supposed to stand for.  How about that?
Dec 5 2007 6:00PM
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ax_murderer
Posts: 3322 - Karma: 30
Ridiculous.  He just disagreed man, cool your jets, he's right to.  As for me, I believe people don't get sent there unless they deserve it.  Which is probably pretty correct but all you liberals are going to freak and say it isn't true.  Those people are there because they've done some heavy probably confidential shit.  I trust we aren't sending innocent people there.  And I think you're being a pussy.
Dec 5 2007 6:01PM
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ax_murderer
Posts: 3322 - Karma: 30
Ahh fucktard.  I just smoked a joint and your still pissing me the fuck off.
Dec 5 2007 6:06PM
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ax_murderer
Posts: 3322 - Karma: 30
And to conclude.   I like where this guys coming from.
Dec 5 2007 6:08PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Okay, honestly, nobody is saying these guys are innocent. However, you touched on the exact problem - because the US hasnt gone through due process with these guys, we have no idea who they are or if they did in fact commit crimes. For all we know, some of these guys could be there having done nothing. If you are that trusting in your government to be able to provide irrefutable yet unseen proof, go fuck yourself and your weapons of mass destruction.

We dont have the information, and thats the exact problem. It would be a clear cut case if we did. Maybe you should ask your government for that.
Dec 5 2007 6:13PM
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user098123
Posts: 6072 - Karma: 18
Well that's it exactly. While I don't trust the government completely (especially not in this regard), I do not believe they would bring in completely innocent people and start torturing them. Not only would it be incredibly inhumane, there would be no point.

I like you label me out to be some die-hard, red, white and blue bleeding republican. That's at least how it looks from my angle, and I can assure you that isn't the case. The problem is who to believe, since neither side has said anything very conclusive whatsoever. At this point in time, I remain largely undecided, waiting and hoping that more information will come out on what is or isn't going on at Guantanamo. The main point of my post was to see the proof of the misdeeds that are occurring in Guantanamo that has everyone in this thread so pissed off. It looks like alot of people jumping on the bandwagon at this point in time.
Dec 5 2007 6:24PM
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Lax_Bro40
Posts: 5166 - Karma: 18
your so fucking dumb honestly. for one arent you canadian so learn your american history before you let all this false shit come out of your mouth.

we didnt steal texas for one it was a mexican in which mexican and american settlers were being paid to settle on. they didnt like the way they were being treated so they tried to talk things out but it went sour. so texas formed a texan NATIONAL army with its own generals and presidents. they fought (american and mexican settlers) for the freedom of their territory.  they won their freedom and became the Republic of Texas.  Then through voting decided to become annexed by the United States. Your a dumbass.


We didnt steal any land from mexico we got into a war with them oer boarder disputes and we won.  the land we received was a part of the treaty. not stealing thats how war goes you lose you lose land. once again your a dumbass.


and guantanamo bay is a holding center for potential terrorists im not ganna say people arent tortured there but they are all Al Queda or Taliban members. who cares if they are tortured they are the scum of the earth and would kill your entire family without thinking twice.  The majority of the people there are probably treated better and have better living there than they did in afganistan or iraq.  


Normally i dont get involved in these types of threads but dumbass liberal canadian pricks like yourself like to bash our government and you dont even fucking live here.  Im sure your views would change if you lost your fucking parents or relatives in a terrorist attack that was unprovoked.  And you cant say us invading Afghanistan is a bad thing at all we were attacked and we fought back.  the people who shoot back at our troops and surrender are sent to the prison camp. where else are we ganna put them, in a regular high security prison? no they inmates would kill them in seconds because even they hate these people.  You have no idea what its like to be attacked because ur canadian and are the collectivly biggest group of pussies besides the french.  Dont talk shit about us fighting a war to help save the lives of innocent people.  

Dec 5 2007 6:25PM
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fujarome
Posts: 8630 - Karma: 1,561
i'd say most are not US citizens, and therefore are not guaranteed rights from the constitution. They are prisoners of war, maybe not prisoners of war as specified by the Geneva Convention, but prisoners of war nonetheless. If they were part of a real army, they would be, but one man blowing himself up along with 100 other people is not a soldier, and in most cases, i'd say that 1 man is more of a risk than a regular solider, and should be treated as such.

If they pretty much say "screw human rights, i'm gonna blow up this market place filled with innocent people" then i agree with torture. If they most likely have valuable information, i agree with it as well. I do not agree with doing it just for the hell of it, or because there is a slight chance that they know something that might possibly be relevant to anything.
Dec 5 2007 6:26PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
The point is, because of the governments stance, there is no way to determine if these people are guilty or innocent. I would love to know that all are truly guilty, but I have reservations in believing that. If it were that easy, the they would have undergone legal process, stood trial and found guilty. Keeping them in limbo increases my suspicion that our government has no idea what the fuck its doing, or is keeping people that may be innocent, which in many ways is worse.
Dec 5 2007 6:31PM
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Alex_G
Posts: 11902 - Karma: 1,019

So....What's new?

Dec 5 2007 6:33PM
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kingarthurs
Posts: 1126 - Karma: 10
That's a total double standard.  I think murderers and innocent persons alike should not be tortured, on the grounds that its inhumane.  I don't know why you would find it acceptable to torture one person and noth another.  In other words, i am entirely against all forms of torture, and i think no good comes of it.  But i do agree with Quinny, the whole place does not need to be torn down, the torture aspect just needs to be eliminated.
Dec 5 2007 6:41PM
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Onlyexstasy
Posts: 388 - Karma: 10
As referenced earlier the facts are not cut and dry....I guarantee there are threats and terrorist issues that would scare the bejeezers out of most Americans if they were told.  We do not know exactly why some people are being held, but I am positive there is a reason for it.  As I said earlier I am for torture to an extent, it serves as the only means of retrieving information in certain situations.  We are not torturing people for fun down there....
Dec 5 2007 6:47PM
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babujib
Posts: 5039 - Karma: 104
100% what i was gonna say, same exact situations when kids throw down the I LOVE CHE GUEVARA when they don't know that he ransacked poor towns in Venezuela and actually put Fidel Castro into power. Any who do more research on Guantanamo before you jump to conclusions read websites which are on a neutral base and not biased
Dec 5 2007 6:48PM
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Casey
Posts: 7847 - Karma: 24,308
yeah, but this isn't propaghanda. well maybe that link was, but prisoners in guantanamo bay are not being charged, they are not allowed to even see the evidence against them in the military tribunal that was set up for them. The government even admits that the majority of prisoners in guantanamo have no evidence against them of any wrongdoing whatsoever, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and they've been sitting in a prison being illegally interrogated for 6 years now.And because the evidence gathered was done so illegally, it would not be admissable in a civilian court, hence the limbo continues.  Additionally, the supreme court has ruled that the millitary tribunals for gitmo prisoners was indeed unconstitutional. This government IS corrupt and they ARE torturing people in violation of the Geneva convention and international law. Don't assume that dissentors are  all ignorant, thats what they want you to think.
Dec 5 2007 8:50PM
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StanMcStanson
Posts: 2773 - Karma: 11
yeah, seriously, i'd rather be well informed about all the illegal things this regime is doing than remain ignorant.  i know it's a skiing site, but people should know what their leaders are doing, if they don't, then bush has total power over you because you act like mindless sheep. read, and find out what the fuck is wrong with this country.
Dec 5 2007 9:12PM
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Capt.Flannel
Posts: 10928 - Karma: 36
or... don't click on threads that aren't of interest to you and you won't have to bitch! "Tear down Guantanamo Bay" isn't exactly a mind-trick of a title, you probably could have guessed what the thread was about. In that case, AVOID CLICKING ON IT!
Dec 5 2007 9:14PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
uh..i think he knows its true because photos and videos and shit surfaced and people were arrested and shit from it. it actually happened....soooo...yeah.
Dec 5 2007 11:27PM
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dbag37
Posts: 457 - Karma: 11
I am pretty sure you are thinking of abu ghraib which would prove his point that people like you do not know what they are talking about.
Dec 5 2007 11:34PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
As I said before, and I hate to reenter the circular argument, if the reasons are good enough for them to be held, then we, the American public, should know. Keeping these guys here without reason, trial or acknowledgment is an affront to the US legal system and all the apparent liberty our country possesses. I dont fucking care if they're scary, I mean, we've already witnessed September 11...
Dec 5 2007 11:37PM
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