If you don't know about Ron Paul

I stopped once I realized the music was gay.

But yeah, Ron Paul has some good policies.

he is somewhat down to legalize cannabis. i have a card with all these marijuana leaves on it  and like saying how ron paul has nothing against it and how he wants to industrilize hemp

  "You wanna get rid of drug crime in this country? Fine, let's just get rid of all the drug laws."                 - Ron Paul

if he seriously said that then he has officially lost and hope of my vote. i can understand weed, but if he has a mind to legalize all drugs, including serious shit like meth, crack, and heroine, then he's got a fucked up head and should not become president.

no that is not the plan.

I just don't see why we should leave Iraq without making sure that warlords aren't in control of the streets with machine guns.  We need to send more troops in to really knock the bad people dead.  Then we need to set up a government and stabalize the country so that no terrorists gain control and attack America again.  We need to show that America is not a pussy.  That we stand up for what is right and then maybe foreigners will respect us.

we do not need to send any more troops into iraq, that place is bullshit and they can take care of themselves..


honestly the soldiers gotta get sick of playing DE_DUST all the time.

So we are going to spend billions of dollars and destroy thousands of lives merely to make our mistake not look as bad as it was.  Are we willing to do this to look good?  Great idea.
Also, what are we going to do trying to make a government.  We have gotten no where so far, how long will it take.  Did our Constitution tell us to invade foreign country's for nation building and policing the world?  I didn't think so.

I think that America needs to protect itself.  We need to go into other countries and fuck up the terrorists.  If people are being oppressed then I feel we have a moral responsibility to take the oppressors out of place and help the people.  We have an army.  We should use that army to help good and fight evil.  Take the Holocaust for example.  If the U.S. was more aggressive we could have saved all those lives and prevented a war.  How do you know that a militant group in Iraq isn't going to gain power create another Holocaust and World War?  If that happens we'll be spending way more money and destroy more lives.  Our Governemnt saw Iraq as threating and decided to invade.  Yes, a lot of peopel have died. Yes, it has taken way to long. No, we should not pull out.  I'm in favor of reorganzing the war in Iraq to be more successful, but abandoning it? That would be giving up on the war agaisnt evil. 

first off "We need to go into other countries and fuck up the terrorists."  - It is when we try to do these types of things that they start to hate us.  They do not hate us because of our freedom, they hate us for what we do to them.  As Ron Paul said, we have been over there bombing them for 10 years.

"If people are being oppressed then I feel we have a moral responsibility to take the oppressors out of place and help the people.  We have an army.  We should use that army to help good and fight evil." - that is good and all, but that is not our job as a nation, we need to look out for ourselves, we have enough problems as it is. We are not a nation built on the ideals of policing the world.

"How do you know that a militant group in Iraq isn't going to gain power create another Holocaust and World War?" - let me think... probably because they are poor as fuck!  Right now we want to invade Israel.  They have no army, they are a third world country and could get fucked up by Israel (their neighbor) if they tried anything.  We need to step back and look at this in a different light.   These terrorists are bad people, but right now, they have no power to create a new holocost.  They aren't quite as big as Germany lol.

"That would be giving up on the war agaisnt evil." - oh come on.  We are the evil ones right now.  We have a horrible foreign policy, we are torturing prisoners and spying on our own citizens.  Don't think the US is some holy superpower.  We need to fix stuff up here so we can be an example they can follow.  We used to be looked at as the best country, now the world hates us.  Ever wonder why?

I think that I have countered all of your points.  Please reply if you do not think I did.  You need to look at things in a different light then what our government right now wants you to do.  You are exactly what our current government wants every person to be.  Try thinking for yourself.

ps, I am not trying to be offensive in anyway, I do not want to come across that way.  Please, lets keep this an intelligent an good arguments like it is now.

"first off "We need to go into other countries and fuck up the terrorists."  - It is when we try to do these types of things that they start to hate us.  They do not hate us because of our freedom, they hate us for what we do to them.  As Ron Paul said, we have been over there bombing them for 10 years."

I think that foreigners do get the wrong message.  Our presedent needs to go out and explain why we've been bombing for ten years.  If our public relations get better than people will get he right message

"If people are being oppressed then I feel we have a moral responsibility to take the oppressors out of place and help the people.  We have an army.  We should use that army to help good and fight evil." - that is good and all, but that is not our job as a nation, we need to look out for ourselves, we have enough problems as it is. We are not a nation built on the ideals of policing the world.

I agree with you on this point.  We should not go out policing the world, spreading are troops around, leacing our homeland weak (this is one of the reasons the Roman Empire fell)  But instead we need to pick and choose our battles.  It was decided that Iraq needed troops therefore we should go big or go home.  If the mission is going to have any success then we are going to need to go all out or not go at all.  And once we are succesful (which should have happened a long time ago) we can then go home.  There are plenty of U.S. troops stationed around the world in places where they are not needed.  

"How do you know that a militant group in Iraq isn't going to gain power create another Holocaust and World War?" - let me think... probably because they are poor as fuck!  Right now we want to invade Israel.  They have no army, they are a third world country and could get fucked up by Israel (their neighbor) if they tried anything.  We need to step back and look at this in a different light.   These terrorists are bad people, but right now, they have no power to create a new holocost.  They aren't quite as big as Germany lol.

Agreed, but you're forgetting how poor Germany was after WWI.  The whole disarmament/reperations thing along with their country ripped to shreads cause of a war left them as a shithole.  And because they were so poor (like Iraq) they looked toward communism and the Nazi regime as an answer.  And although the Nazi's were small, they were able to gain power quickly and begin to take over.

"That would be giving up on the war agaisnt evil." - oh come on.  We are the evil ones right now.  We have a horrible foreign policy, we are torturing prisoners and spying on our own citizens.  Don't think the US is some holy superpower.  We need to fix stuff up here so we can be an example they can follow.  We used to be looked at as the best country, now the world hates us.  Ever wonder why?

Definitly.  We need stop torture, invasion of privacy, the patriot act, corruption, etc.  Theres so much shit wrong with this country.  But still large amouts of innocent people aren't being killed, women have rights, people can vote, theres food.  In other countries things aren't the same. 

PS yea, good argument/debate. Sorry it took along time to post this.  'm not super-educated on the issue but from what I've heard this is what I believe.

haha i don't think so. but that really made me laugh. DE_DUST

I agree with you on this point. We should not go out policing the world, spreading are troops around, leacing our homeland weak (this is one of the reasons the Roman Empire fell) But instead we need to pick and choose our battles. It was decided that Iraq needed troops therefore we should go big or go home. If the mission is going to have any success then we are going to need to go all out or not go at all. And once we are succesful (which should have happened a long time ago) we can then go home. There are plenty of U.S. troops stationed around the world in places where they are not needed. 

- one other place we should not be is Iraq.  Sure we chose to go over there (and to be honest I supported it at the time.)  It is a mistake.  We need to fix that mistake.  Right now we are prolonging it.  There is hardly any improvement being made and its about time that they figure out how to work for themselves.  Some people say that there will be chaos if we leave.  This may be the case, but lets think about who is saying these things: the people who lied to us to get us in there!


Onto the part of a militant group becoming as strong as Nazi Germany.  Germany was poor after WWI, but not 3rd world country poor.  They had a poor economy but they also had decent living conditions.
Germany is HUGE.  The middle east is tiny, at least the part with terrorists.  I mean really small as in the size of California. 
We do have a huge military, as you mentioned.  So far, it has really let us down.  We thought we would be in and out in a couple months.  We need to use our military for its primary purpose, defending ourselves.  And we have more important things to be afraid of, namely China (but that would be another discussion).

Your last argument about how other countries have no food and such is a good one.  We are incredibly fortunate.  There are, however, other ways of settling things then brute military force.  Just at the mention of someone who does not agree with us our government wants to start a war.  As I (and Ron Paul) mentioned earlier, we should do something about our image.  The first thing we need to change is our foreign policy.  We are continually looking like the big bad guy by sending troops everywhere.  If we can restore our image as the "role model country" we could change a lot of things.  We need to mind our own business, if people can at least look up to us, then they won't be angry with us and we can get some things done.  I am not saying we need to isolate ourselves from the rest of the world, not at all.  We can peacefully negotiate, we can trade, we can do lots of things that benefit other countries and ours at the same time.
We won't even need to worry about terrorism if they stop hating us.  I would hate us if I were over there.  If we admit we made a mistake instead of prolonging it, we can actually get somewhere.

sorry i didn't mean to have that quote in there^

I think we're getting somewhere.  Both of us agree that the war in Iraq isn't as succesful as it should be.  Honestly I think that the leaders of America thought there were weapons of mass destruction there and therefore went to war.  I don't think they lied about it, they were just wrong.  And after that happened we should have quickly finished up, made sure everyone was ok and left.  But instead we found a whole set of other problems we dealt with in an insufficient way.  It took too long and too many people died.  But now instead of just packing up and leaving, we need to redo it the right way.  Quickly, with enough troops, and a nation to support it.  Then we finish up, make sure everything is kosher and deal with our internal problems.  But we can't just leave a fucked up nation.

I understand that you, Ron Paul, and the rest of America are pissed off that the war was run so poorly.   I am too.  But instead of abandoning it, we need to bite the bullet, send more troops in, do it right. Get out quickly and work on our own internal problems.

^By doing this we'll fix the mistake, not leave it as is.  And once we fix it people will realize that we're a good country (if we are smart about public relations).

Lets use an analogy.  Say someone hits a guy with their car becuase they thought they had a gun.   The person who they it was innocent but now is badly hurt.  The driver made a mistake and now theres a problem.  Instead of driving off, leaving the person hurt on the ground, he should get out of his car and go help the person.  Everyone around him is going to blame the driver, hate him, and now say he is doing more harm then good.  But once the person he hit is nursed back to normal, and the driver admits his mistake, everyone will respect him despite his flaws and the injured man will be ok. 

you do not try to fix a mistake if it will cause more harm then good.  your analogy is flawed because you are not hurting anybody by trying to help the man you hurt.  The US is losing American soldiers because they are trying to merely look good.  We are not trying to fix a mistake, we just don't want to admit we were completely wrong.  The way to fix the mistake is to leave and cause the least amount of harm, we have to remember, we are killing Americans by leaving them over there.

All I really want to know is, is the man electable?

A month ago I though Hillary was never going to be electable. I won't stand behind that statement today. Will this guy ever actually make a run, or is my vote better spent someplace else?

that is a great question.  I treuly think the answer is YES.  His TV commercials are just starting today, you can watch both on youtube.  His national commercials are soon to come, he has around 8 million in the bank.  He will be on Jay Leno's show on Tuesday, his campaign has raised the fourth amount of money of any republican.  Recent polls place him ahead of Fred Thompson and in fourth place for the Republican party.  I see no better place to put a vote then behind Ron Paul. 

Think of it this way, even if he does not win, if a lot of people vote for him, other candidates might pick up on some of his ideas.  If they see he is popular, they may want to get part of that crowd.

www.pwned.nl

well if we continue to los in iraq hillary is very electable if we start doing better, not so much

here is a better analogy, straight from Ron Paul:
If you diagnos a patient with the wrong medicine and find out it was the wrong diagnosis, you do not continue the treatment, you change the treatment.

ya supposedly he said it but I don't think that is his plan. It is a bit to radical for him.

The thing is though those serious drugs are still done with or without the law and with the law it becomes a criminal business. If you look at numbers, drug use went up at the time of making it illigal and has continued to go up. Basically the huge War on Drugs has been a waste of the American people's money. History has repeated itself again. Look at when they made Alcohol illigal. The time is now known as the Roaring 20s because alcohol use went way up. Crime went way up also with people like Al Capone making a living off of smuggling liquor. This is now happening with drugs which should not be surprising. The surprising part is that people think the cure is more of the same methods that have been proven wrong. When something works in opposite offect of its intended purpose it should be reversed, not repeated. In other words I am for the legalization of all drugs. The destructive drugs will be more exposed and well known for their deadliness. This way any one who does them will do so willingly knowing that they are extremly dangerous. A person who does this does not have my sympathy.

Ron Paul's Stance on drugs:
He would probably legalize marijuana but would leave the "war on drugs" to a state level.  He thinks it is not the governments position.

I agree with you 100% if we legalizd all drugs the government could take control of the drug market and make the drugs safer and also make alot of money from taxation. Im not saying meth is a safe drug.
   
    In Holland they have done this and what they do to the heroin and meth addicts is that they open these medical centers that allow them to get their fix in a controlled enviornment with out having to deal with the crime that goes on to get those addictive substances.

  

Paul would never support such socialism

No we do not have that moral resposibility to be the world police when It comes at the price of our men and our money. The only people who are to fight and perhaps die for the oppressed people are people who agree with you. It is absolute crap for the president to feel that it is his resposibility to sacrifice America for a complete mess of a irrational country and go send troops to die for another country. Yes inlisting is volutary but I'm sure most soldiers signed up to defend America. Not sacrifice their lives for other out of control countries to attempt to bring order with force. The whole Idea that you can establish democracy at the point of a gun is rediculous. The only way to spread ideas is through persuasion and setting a good example.

fucking dumbass he is

I disagree. This makes it sound as if we are on offense picking who to attack next when really we should play strickly defense were our battles are picked for us by other countries attacking. We should not be in Iraq forming a government but should have targeted only the group of terrorist that attacked us and gone no further. If another country poses a threat to us we threaten them and prepare. If they issue a attack we have the rights to attack. This solves the problem of people dieing before we can retaliate. So far we have invaded countries who we believe pose as threats to us. Thats rediculous because we pose a huge threat to many countries being so powerful. There must be a move to initiate a direct attack on us before we have the right to attack back.

somehow you quoted me, but i did not say that^, a different person who was quoting me said that.  just to clarify.

Look up Scott Ritter. The Bush administration lied unconscionably in the lead up to the war. Whether they knew for a fact that there were no weapons or where simply unsure is debatable. What isn't debatable is that they misled the American people criminally by cherry-picking intelligence and presenting the existence of WMDs in Iraq as almost irrefutable fact.

ron paul = savior

im glade your focused on the important topics

I see, your right. I should have quoted Quailman

I love it when people say this kind of stuff.

What troops? Are YOU going to go enlist. Your an American. If you believe that, you should back it up. If you were in Iraq, I think you might have a different opinion.

Ron Paul = a fundamentally, almost over zealous Christian. If he had his way, if you weren't white with euroupean heritage you would be kicked the fuck out of this country. I do agree the last thing America needs to do at this point in time is send more troops to Iraq. I really hate how everyone is jumping on the Ron Paul bandwagon. A lot of people haven't really read all of his platform, just what is good and what you think needs to be pointed out. On the other hand, I like the man because he seems to be a very honest politician, with no hidden agendas, this is more than can be said for the majority of other people. I am a liberal at heart, but I have no idea who I will vote for is Hillary is the candidate for president with Obama as vice, cause I think having Hillary Clinton as president would be very detrimental to this country for plenty of reasons, save it for another thread. And as for RP wanting to legalize weed, it would get through the house or the senate, so if you plan on voting for him because of that you are an idiot.

I'm a liberal but RP doesnt seem too bad for a repub but it doesnt mean Im gonna vote for him. I think im gonna go with COLBERT!! or Obama

terrible post.
Ron Paul does not base his decesions on his faith, he bases them on the Constitution, you know, what our country is built on?  Get your facts straight. 
What are you talking about kicking people out of our contry, thats just being ignorant.  Sure he wants better border security, but you are just looking for something sensatial to say.

But, as you did say, he is a very honest politician, the only honest one running for president I think.  Some people are just trying to find a reason to not vote for him by making ignorant and stupid statements.

or maybe your a little to obsessed with Ron Paul and any negative shit written about him you take offence to. chill out, you have your views i have mine. I don't really agree with revoking birth right citizenship, which Ron Paul wants to do. I don't really agree with a lot of other shit either. maybe you need to read from some other sources about Ron Paul because you seem to have a little bias view of this man, which is probably very candy coated.

"chill out, you have your views i have mine."-----------
This has absolutely nothing to do with my view.  This has to do with his voting record that clearly shows that he bases his views off of the Constitution.  If he based his views off of Christianity then why would he eliminate some drug policies?  I see nothing wrong with showing you that your post was wrong, it was not wrong because of my views, it was wrong from an objective standpoint: facts.  People's views have nothing to do with actual fact, so don't say "you have your views and I have mine", facts are facts.

And don't tell me how I should get my information.  I am perfectly able to form my own opinion that you very much.  Don't tell me that I have a bias to him.  "candy coated" - thanks for that, next time I want to form an opinion I should consult you first.

did anyone see him on Jay Leno? he had a great interview and the crowd loved him.  good stuff.