Why support "core" companies?

DON'T bring up Solomon as a prime example of integrity in the sport, they really showed their colors with the CR JOHNSON situation.

this thread is interresting. ive seen alot of company starting in the industry claiming a 3 years warranty. it make me laugh. i prefer buying salomon , rossignol having whatever is their warranty. because if the ski really have a deffect they wont have problem giving me new ski. they can afford that, but for small company it probably harder to give away pair of ski. plus their ski are usually more expensive. anyway there is no ski that can last forever with rails and jumps, so in my mind buying the cheapest is the best. skiing is so expensive Id rather ski everyday than having all next years stuff

As a business move, I understand why Salomon did what they did.

And that's what being a sponsored pro athlete is about.

If a football player wrecked himself and wasn't performing, he'd take a pay-cut or lose his position too.

that is cause you are a park kid or are too young. 

Igneous doesn't market at all, doesn't need to.  They only make a small number of custom skis a year for people who contact them. They aren't trying to grow at all, nor do they need to.  They have been making skis for almost 10 years, with some complications here and there. 

They aren't anything like any other company currently out there.  They make skis so people can enjoy them.  Not for money, etc.  Adam and Parris don't make shit for money from it.

And yes, they are the nicest skis made, IMO.  Having owned tons (as in 30-40 at least) of skis from a bunch of corporations and custom companies, nothing compares construction wise.



Now back to the debate, playing devil's advocate here...

Maximumsushi: Do you not think that the companies such as Moment, DP Skis, High Society, Igneous, Capital, Kingswood, Bluehouse, Liberty, and all the other smaller companies out there would not give back to the skiing community, with contests, sponsorships, movies, etc, etc, if they could afford to?  What you need to remember about these companies is that they are incredibly small.

You are comparing companies like Moment, for example, which is a bunch of guys who are working outside of their normal day jobs to make the best skis possible for people to companies like K2 & Salomon who parts of BILLION dollar corporations composed of thousands and thousands of employees, unlimited capital, and the manufacturing capability to do whatever they want.  Companies like K2 & Salomon do a decent job promoting skiing and supporting it.  Some are better than others (I would agree that K2 is on top). 

But the number of large corporations who really do a lot for skiing is honestly pretty small.  How many big manufacturers can you name that do such amazing things as K2?  Not many.  Rossignol...meh. Salomon...meh (IMO).  What else...atomic? Elan? Volkl? Nordica? and so on...

To me, there are only a few companies who are really pushing the sport forward as it needs to be.  Some are big, some are small.  K2 does an amazing job. As far as big companies go, they are scond to none.  Line used to do a good job as well, but seem to have kind of fallen back. But other than that, none of the big companies come to mind as that exceptional.

IMO, the core companies are there to give certain skiers the skis they can't or couldn't get from K2 or Salomon or Line.  They provide skis that are different for the better.  If the core companies make great skis that you like, than great. Support them!  But for those who us who have skied 10 pairs of K2 or Salomon over the last year, have broken them or had them crap out or who have just found them to not be what we want, the core companies offer an awesome alternative. 

This is what happened to me.  I skied and broke and got sick of many of the main skis out there today.  Seth Pistol, Seth Vicious, Lines, gotama, spats, head, so on.  And none of them were ever perfect.

So what did I do?  Went to the core companies! Igneous (which I had already owned), Capital, And Kingswood. 

Now....I am a bit picky when it comes to skis, cause after awhile of skiing customs, I just decided I would rather make my own skis....but for most people who cannot find what they want in the corporate sector, the custom/core companies offer a great alternative.

For me, a huge thing is construction.  Most of the core companies (the ones I think of: Igneous, Capital, DP, Kingswood, Moment) offer skis that are IMO much beefier than what K2 and Line and everyone else offered.  To be honest, I cannot say the same for some of the other companies.  But I haven't skied several of them (HS, liberty) so I really cannot talk from personal experience.  But the construction of the other skis is just always better.

What I like about the core companies is that they cater to the people who have don't the corporation thing, and found they didn't like it.

Personally, this works great for me. But not everyone. So if you feel like the core companies are really the answer, then support them.  if you are fine with other companies, then support whomever.  It doesn't really matter as long as everyone pushes the industry forward.

Now, on to a bit of a personal observation.  I do see people hoping on the core company bandwagon a ton, often without knowing much really about the skis.  This is really ok with me, as that is how the current ways of the internet forum work.  It doesn't bother me that certain people get stoked for core skis that are not even currently available.  BUT I can understand how it would bother certain people.  So I would just say to everyone, wait it out.  Be patient.  Nay-saying or hyping skis that aren't out yet doesn't really do anyone much good.  It may turn out that some of the new core companies make the best skis ever, or the worst.

Very few people on here really know, and I guess that is what bothers me the most.  People just on or talk shit about stuff they really know nothing about.

The whole point of this long ramble that none of you will read is that it is important for skiing to have both corporations who can supply and support the contests, movies, and slower progression of skis as well as the core companies, who do things a bit differently and are doing the best job they can with the limited funding they have available.  They both are pushing this industry along, some in better ways than others.  Some are more focused on earning money, getting exposure, and selling as many pairs of skis as possible (all of which cost them less than $50 to produce) while others are spending time hand making custom skis over hours and hours for people who appreciated that kind of dedication.

Support the industry.  That includes the small companies (Moment, DP, etc), the medium skied companies (4frnt, Armada), and the large companies (K2, volkl, sally), because each of them contributes to the industry in their own unique way and are just as valuable as the other.

And LAST, I completely agree when I say FUCK Ninthward and Saga.  Honestly, I left those two out of the discussion here because neither of them even deserve to be a part of it.  Saga isn't as bad as ninthward in my mind.  It has taken Ninthward so long to even have some idea of what they are doing that they mere continuous as a ski company is shocking, let along their highly ethical business practices.  I will never lump them in with the other core companies who actually have respect for a industry that is providing them with a paycheck (assuming they can provide skis to actually sell).  They are a cancer to the industry.  Maybe they can turn it around, but I, personally, could careless if they are never heard from again.

Not before he was given a chance to recover from his injury. Rossignol is a prime example in the way they backed Evan Raps.

I am in no way saying that people shouldn't support core companies but rather that one shouldn't hate on the big guys who give the industry a ton of support or purchase a ski simply because it is core.

As for if some of the core or indy companies would give back to the sport if they had the resources, neither of us can say for certain. It's not really a valid point to say what they might do. They currently are not affecting the industry as a whole.

These companies must have good management to facilitate growth. If they aren't a well run company, they won't grow. This includes things like product quality, pricing, cost control and of course, marketing. It is definitely true that not all the big companies support the sport to the same degree. There are more ways to support skiing than just sponsoring events and movies too. Cheap product, new ideas, quality product, hype new graphics all help us out.

There are a ton of shitty big companies out there. Elan, Nordica? What the Christ are you guys doing? You rarely see people riding these skis despite their huge distribution networks. There are also a ton of shitty indy companies out there as well. Liberty makes garbage from what I've heard. The market share of skis has shifted a ton in the past few years. You see a lot more people rocking 4frnt, Armada, and K2 these days compared to yesteryear's dynastars and Rossignol. Y'herd?

Agree with your first statement a lot.  I don't think talking shit about big companies while just supporting small companies is dumb.  That is why I said we need to support everyone.  It always surprises me how much this industry is separated into little cliques.

I would just say, having spend hours talking with guys who run these small companies while discussing the ins and out and even very minor construction details regarding skis they have made for me, I can say that they love the sport and I would say, without question, if they had the funding and influence to give back to the industry in the form of contests, they would. No question in my mind.  But you are right to say, that when compared to companies producing 50,000-100,000 skis a year, companies making sometimes well under 1,000 really don't have much pull in the industry.  But when you get 10-15 companies, as we are getting close to now, who are producing 200-300 skis a year, they will start to affect the industry.  I think already their input is coming into play regarding ski construction and shapes.

Management and the ability to provide good products and customer service is key to a good company.  I do see how providing cheap products and new ideas are helping to support the industry.  I would note, than, that some of the best new ideas are coming from new companies (moment, DP skis) and that some of the cheapest skis are as well (again, moment and surface).

Regarding most big companies, including rossignol and salomon, their biggest sales come in the form of thousands of rental skis.   The new school and big mountain market is still extremely small, relative to what they really sell.

Either way, I guess my whole feeling is support the industry, which comprises a lot of different companies.  Don't limit yourself to just big or small.

Ultimately, I think that's what Sushi was getting at as well.

Yeah, don't download skis illegally.

First off I am fine with people supporting bigger companies for the reasons above and agree. There are TONS of reasons people should support the core market if they want to push just Freeride segment of skiing.

why you should support core companies:
1) If a company starts with a target demographic of only the "core" market of "freeride" park/BC/pipe skiing they will push products/inovation of this segment and only this segment. That is if you support them and let them make money to do so. This means more targeted equipment made specifically for us, none of that money will go to racing programs.

2) Core companies support the movies, mags, websites, comps, but are not title sponsors because their budgets are smaller. I gaurentee they put more percentage into these outlets than any of the corp companies.

3) Push our sport to grow! If someone sees you rocking K2 and go to the K2 site they may learn about racing, biking, any number of sports that K2 supports (which is fine)...but if someone sees you rocking Armada and goes to their site they learn about OUR sport and only OUR sport.

I could go on but want to hear some other reasons we SHOULD support these companies...

the most cogent and well put together post I have read on NS... the argument could not have been better... I agree 100%

end thread.

theres a lot to read in this thread, to me it seems like older people vs. younger people for the most part. I think supporting a smaller company to stand out is retarded, if you have a legitimate reason, support away, but don't just do it because you think it gives your more respect, because it doesnt

...also a good core company should have just as good if not better customer service. They are overly concerned with growing their brand and brand name so go out of their way to make you feel special.

These are not blanket statements about all core companies but find a good one that has these qualities and support them!

i have stopped supporting the little guy also. i love that wal mart puts local stores out of business. i love big government, big oil, so good for all of us. we should only buy from giant corporations. because we all know it's the little guys that have all the good ideas but the big guys with all the money to rip em off

for this topic, i have to say, i buy companies that i trust, have strong outcome and wont blow away on me. for me, im iffy when it comes to buying somethign that i have never heard about. I mostly support Line, Helly, Oakley, Dakine, Atomic and My Family supports K2 pretty well, since they have been around for awhile and has evolved to reach other peoples needs for the sport. Line has evolved and changed the way they R&D and make the product, i dont support their recent move to China, but i cant change that, im still going to support them. Helly Hanson has 140 years behind them, they make stuff that can handle storms when your out in the middle of the ocean, that shits built strong to last long. Oakley is one of the top manufacturers of Eye wear and they make lasting outerwear and accessories. Last season I bought Anon Goggles just because i liked how they looked and they were "in", Even after i was told not to. My Semi Mistake, Im not saying that im never going to buy them again, just that they dont have strong research behind them.

Back when i did Racing, It was all about the R&D that was put into a ski before it was bought, it works too, all those companies who make top of the line race skis get top of the line results, there is not better way to put it.

Now with the little companies, they start of small and hope to make it big, they are up against the big boys, so they will slap some shnazy stuff on there product, sponsor some local skiers and try to stay true to their roots, Im not saying i dont support them. But since they are just starting off, Im going to give them some time to make profit and then start their R&D.Period.

Are Armada and Line considered core companies?  I would have thought they were the largest of "core" ski companies, now I am confused.

i guess it comes down to your own definition of "core"

If line was "Core", they would of stayed with skiboards and worked more on that

i dont know

i totally agree with this thread.. i rode a pair of '06 public enemy's that i got for free last year.. they were like brand new and they were one of the best skis i have ever ridden.. im riding K2 skis, salomon boots, bonfire oakley and grenade gear.. and i am quite satisfied. just because you ride with some of the bigger brands doesnt mean you arent original. ill rep K2 for life

i would say yes they both are, both have grown quite a bit, but they both seem to have a dedicated following and you'll find a lot more shops that carry Line and Armada than 4 frnt or surface or 9thward

good e-verb

grenade's gear sucks at life, their waterproofing is shit, you apparently don't know what the fuck quality is

I am humbled to be complimented by his Slothiness.


But for the actual thread, everyone seems to agree that a little of both (core companies to make or improve on the innovative designs and the larger companies to mainstream-ize them, or in k2s case create a larger degree of awesome-ness with its coomba, pontoon, and hellbent).

I think their outerwear is the freshest shit that's in the game right now. Quality isn't everything in outerwear, people want to look dope too.

I do have a pair of grenade gloves. They fell apart quite quickly!

lol...they make "sick boots" though. Your still a dumbass. If mike douglas wanted a promodel, he would have got one. In theory, every 1080 ski besides the promodel has all come from his basic designs. Yeah, he got a pay decrease after that because Salomon was having a BAD year.

"Well boys are sales are in the shitter, but Mike won an award.....keep the company afloat, or pay mike more?" If he was soo "unhappy" with his job, he would have left a while ago, and he hasn't. Not to mention that article a while back where he rips into " core company" Anon, and says he still loves salomon.

When is the last time CR won a comp? Like don't get me wrong, great skier, awsome movie parts. But look at guys like dumont, Olenick, Sammy C. These guys bring in soo much buisness for them its not funny. Before his accedent he just wasn't doing much of anything besides movies, and his parts in them weren't that great at all. CR didn't get dropped because he got hurt, as a matter of fact right after he was cleared to ski he was on SALOMON skis.

CR got dropped because he wasn't doing anything for the company. This is a JOB, you WORK for the company when your a proskier. You don't make the company money, you lose your job, just like in real life. Armada, line, Rossi....those companies would have done the same. Grow up, and open your eyes to the real world.

my philosphy has always been support the company that supports you, if in your case its Line go support them, If K2 supports what you like then go buy k2, If your artsy and you like surface go support them, if your a G and like Ninthward go support them. its your choice really

line is a core company...




















a snowblade company.

truth...

there are other companies out there that have dope looking shit that won't fall apart (helly hansen, oakley, holden) I absolutely am in love with my holden shit, top quality and sick looking, the grenade gloves i had fell apart after 2 uses

Imagine if everyone supported core companies and they had money for events like back 9. They have 100% of thier budget focused on the skiing YOU DO whereas companies like K2 put only a tiny PORTION (keyword, portion, like in a pie graph) of their money into our style of skiing.

You have to support these startup companies so they can get the money to give back! shit doesn't grow on trees, and on the grand scale of things your dollar actually matters alot more when you buy a pair of 9thwards or surfaces compared to a pair of public enemies. It gets better too, once core companies start putting money in the big companies have to start putting more in to keep up - notice the domino effect of good events after the young gun comps?




If you cant see a reason to support them thats cool, just dont complain when your friend whos the sickest thing since sliced bread is riding a pair of bargain bin 2000 1080s and your ski selection at shops consists of 3 pairs of the same ski with different graphics.

Yeah....except for the main company responsible for the comp going out of buisiness, and Line being sold to K2. Tons of awsome stuff happened there ( BTW Matt Walker is on Salomon now.....just to let you know) Core companies are nice, but they don't just make up all of skiing as we know it. Skiing is still in its EARLY stages....most of the known world doesn't even know what a twin tip is.

Those big companies are keeping twin tip skiing a float by providing cheep Twin tips that most kids can buy. As much as i love core companies ( i own two pairs of AR5s, and a set of Prophet 130s my self), they don't make great price point skis, and just don't have the gusto to keep newschool skiing afloat all by its self. Plus don't knock big company skis.....some of the most innovative designs come from big companies. K2 hellbents, K2 poontoons, Salomon 1080s, etc.

Salomon is gay.  Im pretty sure most of the world that cares about skiing knows who the fuck salomon is.  Skiing is not in its early stages, twins came out in like 1998 or something like that.  Thats 9 years ago.  People were landing switch before there were twins so u could argue that freestyle goes back further than that.

wow, matt walker is on salomon, that changes everything!!!
k2 was the first company to produce an actually affordable ski, the fujas ski. When 1080s first came out, i remember them being like 500 bones or some bullshit.

Seriously, if Salomon flopped today, the skiing world would not die you idiot.  Yes, they came out with the 1080 first, but only because they had the most money to produce them the quickest.  Some other company would have stepped up and made twintips, no question.  Salomons are not well priced either, they are actually expensive as fuck and it probably costs them twice as less for them to make, compared to other companies since they are all about mass producing.

old pocket rockets = $15 bucks to produce a pair

are you serious?!?  FFS, they used to charge like 700 bones for those when they first came out, what a disgrace to skiers

first of all....the Matt Walker thing is a responce to another post, so your a dumbass. Secondly....9 years, think about that, 9 years. How long was fruitbooting alive before it went under....do tell me? 9 years in the history of a new sport is FUCKING young. Snowboarding got its offical start in the early 80s, and they only got into the olympics in nagano.

If salomon would flop tomorrow, skiing would not die, but it would be a HUGE fucking warning signal that there is something wrong with the sport.

K2 is the first company to produce an affordable entry ski, this is true....but K2 is sort of big isn't it? Not really core.....which this thread is about. Well after that comment, your still a dumbass.

And last but not least, EVERY SKI YOU BUY COSTS NOT EVEN A THIRD to make off the MSRP. Pocket rockets did not cost 17 bucks to make, and your a chud to believe that. Everybody massproduces. Precious Armada is made in an ATOMIC factory if im not mastaken. The only time they were fully independant was when they were made at the Arm-X factory in quebec.

So in theory, the only kids who are core are the ones riding Kingswood, DB, Kookeney Powder/Park Sticks, Arm-X skis, etc. Good luck getting your hands on those, if you think AR6s are exepensive.

dont mind the spelling

oh man where to start on this thred. Frist of all as an older but only newschool skier my opinion is not the same as most. As all of you know i only started sking in 2000. But in a way thats a good thing . my idea of our sport is not tainted by the past. The way i see it is we are struggeling to build a core sport inside a treditional sport full of rules and history.

look at snowboarding, from the ground up it is biult on and from a foundation of snowboaders. Just like Line,Armada or 4frnt. The only resson we know and support these companies is because we know there from the skiers for the skiers. Bigger companies like K2 can sell there shit chepper because there made in China. Last time i checked making things in China is not that core. so price point or not it cost them ten dollers to make a pare of skis and i hope to hell there going to warrenty them at that price. Where as smaller brands spend more on the cost because there not made in a mass cheap labour country. When you warrenty a pare of skis from a smaller brand its money out of there pocket.

look at surfing, rollerblading, skateboarding and BMX and snowboading. Thay all hold on to there atheleties from the past the ones that help build them into core brands we know today. the large ski brands have all had a hand in helping riders get big and as soon as there not generating a profit or get hurt promoting there skis poof there gone. And all i need to say is GLEN PLAKE and maybe HUGO HARISSEN or the good old Canadian Air Force. My point is if Pollerd was on Rossi he would be gone with the wind. The small core brands are as big as are indusrty. take away all the big old dogs and your left with a sport a lot like snowboarding in the early 90s.

but at the same time maximus is right the large brands are helping the sport grow and are giving us the covredge we need plus a product the kids can afford. so were is the end of this cuircle. we will never know.

line seems like a company that likes to help out an give their customers a satisfaction

sorry not to metion that large brands are only geting kids to ride for them these days(salomon).

probably because the "newschool" ski industry is supported by weinie-ass rich kids that don't give a fuck about some old dude with a mohawk, but would suck some double grab dick at the drop of a hat. Skiing is expensive I would support a company with no pros, no graphics on thier skis, no event sponsorships, and no magazine ads if their lack of overhead was refelcted in the skis price.

Holden? You must be fucking joking, their quality is shitty. I have never had so many buttons or zippers break on a jacket. The same shit happened with my friends stuff. They have good designs, but their quality is sub par.

yeah dude.. definitely. my gloves arent falling apart and they keep me dry as shit. dont know about their jackets but my gloves are holding up just fine.

go LOOK

woaa.. wait a minute buddy...did i read something about K2 beeing quality skis???

k2 makes very high-quality skis...
you hear virtually no problems with their product. The seth is bomb. the fujative is a pretty decent park ski from what I hear. The silencer is just another ski they can make but it doesn't break. They appeal to all people, which is why they're a great company and they support so many people.
The skis are kickass too.

it all comes down to choice and preference for the consumer (you and me!). Its more the image and type of skiers that we are that determine what we are going to buy. I agree completely with that statement . I also agree with the claims against those companiesin the first statement . And it is true, what are the supposed "core" copanies really doing to innovate skiing and the industry? We'll to answer that look at line skis, even though they were just picked up by k2 they have been letting there riders do alot within the company for years, i think thats extremely important. Eric Pollard has released several nasty skis from that company. The rider influence is completely related to there name " No bullshit, a straight LINE of communication from rider to company. no bumps or ruts, just a company dedicated to the sport." Salomon, k2, rossignol and several other brands are exactly like this! they just make other skis also because they have the budget to do so. And hey, if a buncha racers buy a lot of skis the company profits from that too, more money for our end as well as theres! Of course they have to be nice and cater to them too, and some companies do that more than others. But the only thing that we will run into is a Nike like company that will say they are for the sport and lie to the consumer by saying there supportive of the local scene when, for instance, nikes skate shoes are only found in major retail stores. For a shop to buy into them its $10,500. for one size in one line. Thats not catering to the riders, thats just a new scene thats is very profitable for the company . They make great shoes none the less! You'll get all sorts of mixed results with every company but each ofne is the same no matter what they say, there a company looking to make profit and stay in the industry. Support who you want, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

i'd put grenades quality on par with siver cartel which equals bull shit. And both my holden jackets from last year are still in amazing condition as are my holden pants, i've had nothing but good experiences with them and many people i know have had nothing but quality product from them

That was some of the stupidest shit I've read in a while. I think most of us here at K2 know about the sport of skiing:) It is why we are here. We ski and we do plenty of R+D. Come over to the Norwest and see for yourself. Please tell me one thing K2 has 'bought' and marketed it as it's own. We didn't invent reverse camber, but we sure as hell figured out a way to make it better:) Your statement is an insult to the fusion of over 40 years of remarkable ski technologies and construction processes at the hands of our small crew of engineers, in-house ski freaks and athletes.

In my case, im little more interrested in core compagnies because all the big compagnies like salomon or K2 look like their in just for the money, a little like nike and skateboarding

I stopped buying K2 when they started making their ski in china. This is a big insult...

lol and the "core" companies are in it for what?