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Pro choice/ pro life

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little_ey
Posts: 609 - Karma: 392
for those arguing about it in the ron paul thread... here's a new arena to conduct your moral battle.

i appreciate your views on them all, but as we were all agreeing, lets let that one go back to ron paul.
Jul 25 2007 10:44AM
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Rez4frederick
Posts: 4740 - Karma: 40
Im for pro choice, but I honestly do not think that the president of the US really has an effect on what each individual does on their own.  If a female carries a baby for 3-4+ months and then decides she/he doesnt want it, that is bullshit, but at the same time, there are a shit load of idiot women/men who have like 30 kids and cant take care of any of them, their should be required vasectomys for people who have to many kids and cant take care of them.   I honestly think that alot of people are better off not being born rather than be born into a world with no mother to care for him/her, no parents, parents have no money, poverty etc.
Jul 25 2007 11:06AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
This subject is the most redundant subject ever discussed.

Here are the main points that will inevitably be debated.

1) When does life occur? Conception, birth, somewhere in between. Pro choicers will say "Should it be illegal to jack off?" and pro lifers will say "When the sperm meets the egg that is a baby."

2) Pro Choice "If abortion is illegal people will go back to shoving clothes hangers up there and leaving there babies in dumpsters. Pro Life "Adoption and social services could take on the burden."

3) Morrality

4) god

5) Social responsibility


Whatever, Bottom line as I see it is Abortion while in the first trimester should be ok. No one really wants these bastards anyway and they will most likely become a burden on society. Anyone that is pro life really has a hidden agenda to make the world a place where they don't have the social gray area that comes with abortion because they have never experienced this situation. Politicians are pro life because it is much easer to defend than the stance of pro choice and it gains religious voters.

So basically keep the laws we have now and worry about more important things.
Jul 25 2007 11:44AM
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thenakedcellist
Posts: 2666 - Karma: 218
^
Jul 25 2007 11:47AM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
I have always believed that if a girl thought she was responsible enough to have sex without protection, she should be responsible enough to take care of a child. Unfortunatley, girls get pregnant quicker than they mature. I have also stood by the fact that an abortion should only be performed for such reasons as health risks and rape. It's such a touchy subject because everyone has their own opinion.
Jul 25 2007 11:52AM
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StevenSegal
Posts: 1716 - Karma: 16
life, unless for medical
Jul 25 2007 11:56AM
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Pipe_Munky
Posts: 10888 - Karma: 2,184
I'm going to argue from the Social Responsibility angle.


Unplanned pregnancy tends to happen at a young age when the couple are either a) not ready for a child whether mentally or financially and the child then becomes a burden and is seen as such, b) the two aren't even a couple just two people having casual sex with no intentions of being together at which point the child grows up without a father.

These situations affect the mental development of a child and if the woman wants to go through with the pregnancy then I would wish her all the best of luck. 

At this point, Pro-Lifers would argue that the woman could simply carry the pregnancy to term and then give the child up for adoption. Unfortunately this isn't always the best decision since the mother/child bond is extremely strong and I can only imagine how giving up one's child would affect a woman. Also, for a child to eventually find out they were adopted can be extremely stressful and potentially emotionally damaging to them. In high school I knew someone that on their 18th birthday, their parents told him that he was adopted and he broke down, turned to booze and drugs and hasn't been the same since.


That's my argument for Pro-Choice!




 
Jul 25 2007 11:57AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
condoms are only 99% effective same with birth control. So sometimes it is out of their hands. Also there is something to be said about changing circumstances.

How do you feel about the mourning after pill?

I feel the same way about the sex part but it takes two to tango and I feel that guys are let off the hook a lot of the time.

There are just too many extenuating circumstances.

If health risk and rape were the only circumstances then every 15 year old girl would be saying her boyfriend raped her. That is my logic on that argument.
Jul 25 2007 11:59AM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
If there was a cheep, 100% reliable, available to everyone in the US birth control method. Like a genetic switch that is activated at birth and can be turned on and off. (a definite possibility). Then I could see the argument for pro choice but this is not the case.
Jul 25 2007 12:02PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
The morning after pill...Hmm. It's hard to say. I have never had to use it. I have read a thread on here about a girl who used it twice within a week (because the condom broke). Understandable, but she should have also been on birth control.

Yes, guys are definatley let off the hook. But, it is the girl who carries the child, it is the girl who will end up with the repsonsibilites of that child. That is how it is, unless you find a mature guy who will love that child passionatley. So ultimatley, it is the girls fault for not making him strap on a condom, or being on birth control.

I think that it should be a health requirement that all girls be put on birth control from the time they get their period, to when they reach the age of 18. I am so sick and tired of seeing 16 year old girls pregnant. It pisses me the fuck off. There goes the rest of their teenage years. Here comes motherhood. And if not that, then they are dumping their child off with the first person to sit for them. I have seen way too much of it. I could go on forever about how I feel about teen pregnancy and the stupid parents they have.
Jul 25 2007 12:28PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Its got to be pro choice. Needless to say, there should be at least some laws regulating third term abortions and such, and that will inevitably cause controversy, but I think that overall, the process needs to be left up to the mother, not our government.
Jul 25 2007 12:30PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
I'm, personally, pro-life because with so many people who are unable to have kids, I feel that those who are lucky enough to be able to conceive should cherish it.

Why I would vote pro-choice - aborting a fetus before 25 weeks (I think it's 25 - whenever their lungs develop fully) is not murder. Murder is when you take the life of a live person, NOT a thing in a woman's body that can't live on it's own. After 25 weeks, if a fetus can live without the mother, than it's a person and because of the third-trimester, we don't have to worry about that.

I would also vote pro-choice before I voted pro-life (if I was to vote on this issue alone, though it isn't on my priority list for picking a candidate right now) as it would have to be a candidate who understood that being pro-life ISN'T just about being pro-birth/conception - you need to be as close to sure as you can that that kid isn't going to starve, is going to be able to get an education, and is going to get the healthcare they need.

You can't be pro-life if you don't support and protect the ability and opportunity for that kid to live a decent life.
Jul 25 2007 1:00PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
Ahhh fuck it, as Freakonomics pointed out - if they abort 'em, they can't be criminals later!
Jul 25 2007 1:02PM
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TheButterHashira
Posts: 9691 - Karma: 1,702
i think if you think your old enough to have sex your old enough to have a baby. i think abortions should only be used for medical purposes, or in the rare instance a girl becomes pregnant from rape if she wishes to. but at the same time im not going to condemn someone or think less of them because of their choice.
Jul 25 2007 1:04PM
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king.tubby
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 122
plain and simple, i think abortion is a good thing because there are too damn many people on this planet as it is. if every fetus made it through to birth, think how many more people there would be on our already resource-depleted planet.
Jul 25 2007 1:05PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
Are you fucking kidding me? Aborting a fetus at 25 weeks is murder. Yes. Have you ever been pregnant? NO. At 25 weeks I had a BABY in my belly. A BABY. I could feel it move. That sir, is life. In the making. Pregnancy is 40 weeks. At 25, the baby has been inside the mom for half of the time growing. IT IS HUMAN. And if you believe that getting an abortion at 25 weeks is ok, you need to learn more about the process of pregnancy. The only way an abortion should be performed is before 8 weeks.
Jul 25 2007 1:08PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
I agree.

As soon as pregnancy is established. IE the mother knows she is pregnant that is when a decision should be made.
Jul 25 2007 1:10PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
well, sorry Ashley, but unless that baby can live on it's own, I can't consider it a life to be taken.
Jul 25 2007 1:11PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
You are fucking stupid Sam. Seriously. Fuckin stupid.
Jul 25 2007 1:13PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
real nice - God forbid I have an opinion.

I lost that list you sent me of appropriate opinions and stances on issues, can you email that to me again? Thanks, that'd be great.
Jul 25 2007 1:14PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
What did I say the whole abortion debate boils down to when people consider life to occur.
Jul 25 2007 1:15PM
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comeatmebro
Posts: 10720 - Karma: 66
calm down, this is all opinion although i agree with you everyone has their own opinion whether right or wrong...
Jul 25 2007 1:15PM
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KLovelace
Posts: 2118 - Karma: 289
I really think that law about the late abortions is fucked up.. its not about irresponsible people who didn't wear condoms, its for women whose lives are in danger if they give birth or continue with the pregnancy. its fucking stupid, what the fuck ever happened to the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE??
Jul 25 2007 1:17PM
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Ryanvdonk
Posts: 12811 - Karma: 1,971
bush happened
Jul 25 2007 1:20PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
I apologize. I am just heated. You have every right to have an opinion. I am sorry I disagree with it.
Jul 25 2007 1:20PM
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KLovelace
Posts: 2118 - Karma: 289
yes and then he overwelmed his cabinet with unqualified envangelical christians.
Jul 25 2007 1:21PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
that's fine! You took that as though I was forcing people to have abortions at 25 weeks. I'm not - I wouldn't support my own wife having an abortion at 25 weeks. I'm just saying that I would not vote to pass a law prohibiting somebody from aborting a baby BEFORE 25 weeks. If a girl can feel the baby inside her moving around and she decides to abort it, that's her decision, not mine and I wouldn't force her to do otherwise.
Jul 25 2007 1:23PM
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little_ey
Posts: 609 - Karma: 392
i was about to bring up Freakonomics, but thanks for beating me to it.

I want to know what's with everyone saying that teens are getting prego because they don't use a condom or birth control... they are not 100% effective. A person can use every means of concraceptives and still become pregnant.

I could be an advocate for both, but since i have pro choice views as well, i guess i wouldn't be able to flat out tell people in a law that they have no choice in the matter. I've had a few close people in my life who have gotten abortions and they're probably better for it (granted their abortions were early). but i've also had a friend get pregnant from her boyfriend of 3 months when she was 19. she carried the child and has become such a more wonderful person because of it (and they have now been happily married for over a year).
Jul 25 2007 1:24PM
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KLovelace
Posts: 2118 - Karma: 289
a i agree, however, i think abortion should be allowed at this time in the case that either the women, baby, or both would not survive the birth.
Jul 25 2007 1:26PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
Bah. I still don't agree with that. A fetus is life. If aborting, that desicion should be made within days of finding out you're pregnant. Not when you're halfway down the road. Sorry, if you're 10 weeks pregnant, there should be no turning back. You've had 10 weeks to decide. C'mon now.
Jul 25 2007 1:26PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
Hey, I agree with you as I would live such a situation in the same way, I just wouldn't force anybody else upon that. I used 25 weeks simply as a cutoff of when a baby can live on it's own.
Jul 25 2007 1:28PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
I agree on the decision should be made immediately thing, not the 'fetus is a life' thing*
Jul 25 2007 1:29PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
Well yes that is obviously understandable. But to just say, I decided I don't want this baby. Give me an abortion. Uh, no?

This is also for you Sam.
Jul 25 2007 1:31PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
Not my decision to make for other people. I wouldn't support it, but I won't look down on those who do.
Jul 25 2007 1:32PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
Ok, I can see you'll stick by your opinion of a fetus is not a life.

I don't want to have us hate on each other for our separate opinions. We were friends before this and I would like us to remain friends.
Jul 25 2007 1:32PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
as long as you keep your cool and don't resort to calling me 'fuckin stupid' every time I have a different opinion, than we should be OK.
Jul 25 2007 1:34PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
Agreed. Again, my apologies.
Jul 25 2007 1:35PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
This is probably 100% inappropriate and completly ass hole thing to ask, but I am seriously asking and not trying in any way to be condescending or an ass hole however, Was your child planned?
Jul 25 2007 1:45PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
It is not inappropraite at all. I am very open to talking about having my children early. No, she was not planned. But I took full responsibilty. I consider myself a very good mother. My second child was planned.
Jul 25 2007 1:52PM
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Tasche
Posts: 5422 - Karma: 99
again asked respectively.

did you ever consider abortion?

Also this experience makes you 100 times more knowledgeable and credible in this debate.
Jul 25 2007 1:55PM
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Tom.
Posts: 1954 - Karma: 12
I'm anti-choice and pro-death.

ALL BABIES MUST BE ABORTED UNDER PENALTY OF LAW!
Jul 25 2007 2:01PM
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troutbum
Posts: 825 - Karma: 11
This guy's got it.
Jul 25 2007 2:02PM
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snwbrdmilf
Posts: 22441 - Karma: 2,805
The father was leaning towards me having an abortion. But ultimatley it was my desicion. And no, I never considered it.
Jul 25 2007 2:02PM
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