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Jesus Christ MSP

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rodenski5
Posts: 384 - Karma: 10
Would it kill them to not make the exact same movie every year?

Gratuitous voiceovers, check
Rory B jumping off shit, check
Flagrant slow-mo usage, check
"Artsy" shots of eastern culture, check
Lots of shots from helis and of helis, check

Some sick stuff in the trailer, but come on...

PS way to use "long," "story," and "short" in the title. Honestly, why even do that?
Jun 8 2007 3:41PM
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skiierman
Posts: 28699 - Karma: -5,563
Thank you. Look at the top mountain bike movies, ROAM and The Collective for example. Very little "special" editing, and it came out epic. It's all about what you are into.
Jun 12 2007 11:29AM
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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36
whistler bike park segment. nuff said
Jun 12 2007 6:53PM
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skiierman
Posts: 28699 - Karma: -5,563
Yeah exactly. There's very little editing, but more of creative filming.
Jun 12 2007 6:56PM
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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36
with perfect song selection for that part
Jun 12 2007 6:57PM
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JFerg
Posts: 2440 - Karma: 62

Seriously. I would rather watch ANY MSP flick over something like that seg you posted any day. That looked like me and my buddies filming every trick we did in the park on any given day, cut and pasted all of them together without any editing, and put music overtop. Honeywell is a sick skier, no doubt about that. I will tell you right now I didn't see "real speed perfection" in any one of the shots in that entire seg. He's sick, but it was pointless to post that seg to argue a point about "real speed perfection". It looked way shittier than any of MSP's slow-mo shots. Get over yourself.

Jun 12 2007 7:21PM
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tjski
Posts: 5859 - Karma: 44
looks pretty cool to me.
Jun 12 2007 7:31PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
FatBastard!

I and others appreciate that you have taken the time to write.  Do not think for one moment that your posts have gone un-read and unconsidered.  You are passionate about your work and it shows in your posts.   Thank you!   

If it isn't broke, don't fix it!



Jun 12 2007 7:49PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
yes I totally agree but heres what I don't understand:


People seem to stick to the idea that "either you have sick filming or sick editing" This means really sick filming with minimal editing goes into a good film, or really sick editing to "make up for the lack of creative filming"

Its not a black and white issue.


Just imagine if Kris Ostness took the the footage that MSP shot and edited like TBC. The final product would combine the best of both worlds with the end product of "really sick filming with really sick editing".



Its the same issue with color correctiong footage. People argue "why color correct of it looks really good already?" Well by color correcting, it would look even BETTER.


I highly disagree with the whole "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" quote. Change is good, as long as its successful.
Jun 12 2007 8:04PM
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ry.will
Posts: 3225 - Karma: 47
i agree completely with tanaka here about the filming/editing issue, it doesnt seem like anyone wants to break away from the mold of having one of each above average and the other not quite on that level, andyea the if it aint broke dont fix it motto doesnt work here, it doesnt encourage progression, and something obviously is broke looking at how many people arent too stoked on what msp is putting out right now.
Jun 12 2007 8:11PM
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Static
Posts: 8553 - Karma: 4,089
Just imagine if Kris Ostness edited a free helly hanson dvd, wow powerful editing skillz right there.
Jun 12 2007 8:12PM
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bob_dole
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 1,580
the point i was trying to get across was more along the lines of editing doesnt neccesarily entirely have to do with making the visual deal actually LOOK better, its also a liil bit of arranging it in such a way to make a round about narrative. again, thats what i like to do at least...doesnt mean my way is the right way, just a way that i like to do it. its kind of hard to put set forth expectations in video...because video is just that, a piece of freaking plastic (nerds can go all out on this to correct me on the proper material in a miniDV tape/film camera) that captures imagery. you can capture the imagery anyway you want, and then arrange it anyway you want, do whatever the hell you want with it in the studio as well....just as long as when the final product comes out, its something to will hold the viewers attention.
Jun 12 2007 8:13PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
yeah he obviously half-assed that though. Even then, there was some parts I really enjoyed, like Wilson's segment.


And I understang what bob_dole is saying as well. A certain kind of filmmaking is to show events in chronological order or something along those lines, to half document something and half ski-porn something in the editing style. With films like ROAM, the simplistic approach fits much better; that I will agree with. ROAM is a fucking amazing film by the way.

I think I just dont really appreciate that approach in skiing because I am far more passionate about skiing than I am about biking. If it werent for the crazy filming, I wouldn't even watch ROAM (on a sidenote, I don't even own a bike; not because I can't afford one but because I have no interest in one). I personally feel the best way for me to express how beautiful skiing is to me is to just add music, crazy and textured editing, and amazing cinematography. I think of filmmaking like painting: no words; 100% creative freedom; let the pictures/editing speak for itself. Also this brings me to my next point: the whole thing about doing what pleases the crowd. That is completely out of the ballpark as far as creativity is concerned. Thats the type of shit that mainstream cinema pulls off just to make money, and in return, you get movies with nothing to offer except high budgets. I dislike MSP because they are a prime example of this. They are a sign that the black smog of mainstream cinema has made its way into skiing (Warren Miller too, but in a worse way). Why don't you guys hire Will Ferral to take off is pants in Abma's segment this year? maybe that will increase sales?
Jun 12 2007 8:50PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
nope.....  this is NS mob mentality at its best.  The dynamic of a message board is that it will be disportionatly negative.  There will not ever be a message board that blows sunshine up everyones butts about how good this and that is. 

While I believe there is a certain disatisfaction amongst the vocal active posters here on NS. I  believe that thier formula is successful, otherwise they would not continue to get the budgets year after year.  It's a skiing film - and most skiers love them all!

I read these threads and it is hard for me to find proactive constructive criticism, that is frustrating.  Everyone has said basically that they hate the same formula but they don't seem to offer any suggestions.

BTW - this is why I like the amatuer films as well as the professional ones.
Jun 12 2007 8:54PM
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timoski
Posts: 3036 - Karma: 45
art vs. watered-down product
Jun 12 2007 9:06PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
I stand corrected tanakaskier has offered his viewpoint of an ideal film which BTW......... he backs up with his own creations. 
Jun 12 2007 9:09PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Are you forgetting that every kid on NS wants to be on Berman's cock?

also my idea of a sucessful movie isn't sales. Take Wake Up Lucid for example. It is a snowboard movie that was shot entirely on super8 (www.arrex.com) and I think it is the most beautiful thing ever. Their distributer fucked them over so they made zero sales, but it is in my mind one of the most successful snowboard films made, because it inspired some average kid halfway around the world to go out and make movies.
Jun 12 2007 9:18PM
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mski
Posts: 4791 - Karma: 3,803
that was sweet! I enjoyed that trailer...some of the big mountain stuff is too long in there movies...i hate slow mo big mountain, but they do a really good job with everything else!
Jun 12 2007 9:43PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
yes, quite frankly.......     I was posting more from the angle of the general public.  I feel bad for fatbastard, he obviously is passionate about his work.  I am probably stating the obvious, but the points that other posters are complaining about are NOT the things that the general public sees. 

Face it, the young core skiers know the basics of filming and editing, they want to see stuff that is new, while most who buy and enjoy the films just want to watch some sick skiing. I buy probably 20 films a year and honestly I can't tell you which ones are LV1 PB MSP or BFD..  I do remember epic scenes and branding, whether it be little sean peitit in the bathroom or silly slothy things..  :)  

OK I am rambling.  done.....

Jun 12 2007 9:45PM
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durkin.
Posts: 1047 - Karma: 36
i get what you your trying to say, that filmaking is an art blah blah blah. but a movie is a completely different medium for exhibiting art than a painting is. and buy choosing to to use film, instead of photography or a paiting you are enabled the use of sound (if you so choose) to help tell your story. so by saying msp movies arent up to your standards because they have people talking in the movie is silly. its like being closeminded and saying that the only photographs that are artisitic are black and white.


and im mainly supporting push, not msp movies in general.
Jun 12 2007 11:41PM
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soradrightnow
Posts: 318 - Karma: 10
look, it's last year's MSP movie, but now with 34.675% more park shots!

LCD...Lowest Common Denominator. Pandering to the Masses. Recycled. Boring.

Whatever you want to call it, it's what MSP does, and they do it well. It isn't groudbreaking, it isn't new, it's just another MSP movie, but this time, with a few more athletes, some of which are damn good and deserve nothing less than a huge seggy in a hugely distributed ski movie, if only so that they max out their sponsor incentives. I don't care, but if my parents/grandma skied, they'd wanna see it. And good on MSP for pandering to the "mom, dad, and the grandparents" audience. As for anything else that MSP is/may be alleged to have/not have done, fuck'em, I don't care, and if/when I bother actually paying for a ski movie next season, something I haven't done in a damn long time, MSP's movie won't be on my list.

Every year, I get a few phone calls saying "Yo come to the MSP premiere" and every year, I give them the same answer "Why, I saw it x number of years ago, and it's the same shit all over again". To be honest with you, I'd rather go to a strip club...

I'd yawn, but I'm strung out on caffeine and don't wanna bother making the effort to fake it.
Jun 12 2007 11:43PM
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Ryanvdonk
Posts: 12811 - Karma: 1,971
don't compare red tape with anything else, it was done to show how the plehouse boys have fun during the winter, not to be the most progressive or sickest or most gnar or follow any fads. that is why it's unique and is just simply one of the most enjoyable ski movies out there.
Jun 12 2007 11:50PM
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french_fry
Posts: 4698 - Karma: 53
Except for the lame commentaries at the beginning that gave me a lame first impression, that trailer made me want to ski, especially those fast paced big mountain lines. It's a teaser and that's all that matters so far. Quit your bitching already. The sunset shots on Blackcomb look wicked every time.
Jun 12 2007 11:53PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
thats not at all what I'm saying and that is a horrible simili.

I mean that by the simplistic and documentation approach to ski films is not of my style because I feel footage that beautiful would look much sicker with creative and artistic editing. This is a personal preference. I never said "talking isn't artistic" or that it "doesn't live up to my standards".

and secondly, the editing really isn't artistic for the most part; there are a few exceptions in certain parts of each film. I definately never said the filming wasn't artistic. MSP has by far my favorite filming of all film companies along with TBC. And honestly, what seems more artistic, talking about how much snow there is or craftily arranging colors, shots, and music in a rythmic and creative way?
Jun 13 2007 1:09AM
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ry.will
Posts: 3225 - Karma: 47
I hear what you're saying here. It may be the NS mob mentality with kids just following the overall idea of the masses, whether they whole heartedly believe msp is an uncreative film company that puts out essentially the same product under a facade of new tricks and riders, well never know, its the fact that the thought is there every season yet still msp does nothing about it. While MSP continues to sell movies I can guarantee their sales aren't drastically increasing year by year as they may have been over the course of their "ski movie" franchise. I loved those movies, i had just gotten into freeskiing and they had some of the best footy year to year, but after a while you want to see something different, and MSP obviously doesn't feel thats the direction they want to go in. While they may go to new places, big mountains look the same, the japan segment last year was by far the best in my mind simply because it was out of MSPs normal realm. But then you come back to the whistler sunset shoot, skarachuting or whatever the fuck its called, rory bushfield jumping of random shit, and so on and so forth. Every year NS voices their opinion about a lot of these elements of MSPs film, mob mentality put aside, and still MSP does nothing, while we know for sure they're on here watching what we say. Every film company does this in the sense that from year to year their movies seem eerily familiar, but other companies mask that fact better through new filming angles, editing, locations, MSP just isn't very good at this and their movies suffer because of it. They end up seeming like the ramped up offspring of last years film rather than a movie that stands alone. I just think they need to do something a bit different, to be great you really have to move out of your comfort zone and see if you're still successful, and MSP certainly has never done that.
Jun 13 2007 1:49AM
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SteezePatrol
Posts: 10281 - Karma: 36
everyone blew sunshine up t wallisch's butt
Jun 13 2007 1:51AM
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soradrightnow
Posts: 318 - Karma: 10
there's tons of suggestions, but seeing as how you're part of that LCD segment that I mentioned, I guess you can't see it.
Jun 13 2007 2:41AM
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gaydar
Posts: 543 - Karma: 5
I like all the msp dudes that surface every time one of these threads come out.







Your slow film style and lame music/editing doesnt cater to the kids anymore, either change your shit or stop trying to force it down our throats. I know you can try to pull the "buy what you like and dont bitch about it" but it doesnt really work when your pulling predatory marketing practices on all the shops and distributers (i am well aware of this as its currently a large issue with PMPs in skateboarding, see: http://www.realskate.com/Stratford.pdf ).

You cant go around taking top skiers and jumbling them into an easily accessible fun for everyone package while expecting all the kids that are really into the sport to like it. Youve picked your market, stick with them and stop crying when the kids that know whats up hate on your movie. Bottom line is that its cool if some kids dont like your movie and other people do but once you start trying to force other niche movies out through distribution and stores (i worked at a ski shop and im familiar with it) it becomes everyones burden.

I guess the real bottom line is that you guys are a burden on the ski movie industry. Thanks, jerks.
Jun 13 2007 3:07AM
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soradrightnow
Posts: 318 - Karma: 10
hey sexpredator, you unknowingly did skiing a huge favour by posting that link.

Too bad no one will bother to read the 13 pages. Interestingly enough though, I just did. And I have to say that while buddy is mostly right, he's forgotten something: lawsuit threats still happen online, and still do have important effects on what goes on.

And as for that part about magazines, ads, and the rest of it, it should be REQUIRED READING for anyone who bothers with reading ski magazines these days.
Jun 13 2007 3:59AM
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grambo
Posts: 1125 - Karma: 93
Sorry, I don't agree with you. On the talent/skills side, MSP, TGR and PBP have the best in big mtn and park.
Jun 13 2007 4:22AM
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skodeo7
Posts: 14949 - Karma: 9,234
Well I just have to say that I give a lot of credit to FatBastard for stepping up to try and reply to some of these kids. Balls.

But on the other hand, I must say that I literally have not been able to watch an entire MSP movie from start to finish since Ski Movie 1. Throw out ski BASE jumping. NO ONE WANTS TO SEE THIS. Except for 4% of your audience. Make a ski BASE jumping movie if you guys are so stoked on it! Johnny's making a surf flick, anythings possible.

The slow-mo issue has already been addressed. I wholeheartedly loathe MSP movies because of that crap though. FatBastard you say that a skier can "get away with a flaw" when the clip is shown in regular motion? I completely disagree. Slow motion can often be used to mask a slightly sketchy trick. You can tell if a skier greases a trick just as well in regular motion as slow, except sometimes when you show the trick in slow motion it completely devalues the technical difficulty of the trick.

These super slow mo heli shots are DOPE as fuck (don't get me wrong)--but they are sooo overused. When you have 30482352394 slow motion heli shots with the rider suspended in air the movie just gets boring to the average freeskier. These kind of shots are really much more appealing to an audience who IS NOT actually a skier. These shots directly appeal to an audience who doesn't really understand. A "newschooler" (god I hate that term) doesn't need to see a clip at 25% of its actual speed to understand that Jon or Tanner just greased the fuck out of a trick. One of the most important things of skiing is style, its a lot easier to tell if a good skier has style in real time. If the trick is smooth, you don't need slow mo.

I think I'm probably going to stop typing there before I get triggered and start writing a novel. That said, ski movie companies, make your movies tighter, more cohesive, with less riders, keep that shit to the point and shorter. Take a lesson from the classic snowboard flicks, keep that shit tight. Anything longer than 45 minutes is ridiculous. Keep the viewer wanting more. If they are skipping every other segment, you don't have a good movie. Even a movie like Royalty I can watch segments of riders who I dislike (Dybvig & Dion) because the movies got FLOW son. MSP flows like glue. Iberg flows like water.
Jun 13 2007 11:06AM
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dirty_dreb
Posts: 2659 - Karma: 19
YO BRO NEXT YEAR JUST MAKE THE MOVIE AT BLACKCOMB AND BUILD 14 JUMPS INSTEAD OF 2. SUNSET SHOTS FOR 60 MINUTES? KILLLEER DUUUUDE
Jun 13 2007 11:37AM
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dirty_dreb
Posts: 2659 - Karma: 19
incredible.
Jun 13 2007 11:41AM
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johnnypsunami
Posts: 5024 - Karma: 221
not impressed one bit.
Jun 13 2007 11:54AM
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skiierman
Posts: 28699 - Karma: -5,563
Then don't buy the movie. I can garuntee that you're going to be missing out though.
Jun 13 2007 12:16PM
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bob_dole
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 1,580
i forgot who it was but they mentioned that with video comes sound. and that is VERY true...i havent really seen any of your mini clips/edit deals as of late. i can remember the teaser deal you put it. and you dont really use the audio part of things in video all that much during it, not saying anyting bad...just highlighting your difference of editing between others. actually, do you even have any real audio from the clips in there? again, not saying anyting bad on it...its a fucking SICK edit for sure, but others like to use more audio in it and like to exploit that a lil more.

so if you guys are saying msp uses this too much, then what about 91 words for snow? what about afterlame? they DEFINATELY have all those "lame voiceovers" fuck it, they have people sitting on chairs talking and actually showing that and THEN the snow stuff. but yet everybody praises them like crazy, myself included. imagine if msp were to have actual interviews like that with people sitting on couches talking...the whole ns.com community would explode! instead it seems like msp mixes it up a lil bit and has some of the talking over skiing (your still seeing the epic deep snow while theyre talking about it) or in other cases they have the person talking about it right after or before, still in clear site of the snow (ingrid has a few mini talks like that)
now, another point. imagine if you just did a line as they did in the movie, wouldnt you be stoked as fuck? and with that stokedness you obviously want to share the experience, correct?...and oh my! there is a camera!! what better way to get that amazing feeling out there to people than to talk about it, and then when the editor sits in the editing room and tries to get the feeling of that period out there. what better way than to show the actual stokedness of the person who just did that? doesnt matter what anyone says, there is no more direct way to translate emotion like that. at least in my opinion again.

the translating of emotions through video is what makes it so effing rad! tanaka, you like to do it by "painting" the images so that you can get wahtever you want across. myself, i definately do like to use audio and commentary to get more things across than just what the video can tell the viewer. bottomline like ive been saying, as long as the video gets people to take note of it, its legit in my book.
Jun 13 2007 12:32PM
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soradrightnow
Posts: 318 - Karma: 10
Go read this now. It's 13 pages that will PROPERLY educate you as to a whole bunch of things. From now on, NO MORE POSTING until you've read this: http://www.realskate.com/Stratford.pdf

Shout outs to sexpredator for doing his homework. Now go do yours.
Jun 13 2007 2:04PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
oh well thats easy:

I try to get the film look. I feel audio makes it seem more digital and I hate the digital look. and besides, who wants to hear the sound of a a film crew standing around in the backcountry because thats really all I pick up. as for park, I just get the sound of chairlifts running, random people skiing by and making that annoying noise that skis make in footage when they do that....it just sounds like shit. The only instance I would use sound is if I had a seperate audio guy with a field mixer have a mic right next to a jump, so that you could hear the ssssccchhhhhkkk sound of him taking off, but other than that, its sounds unprofessional and shitty in my opinion.
Jun 13 2007 3:06PM
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dead
Posts: 1635 - Karma: 11
hmmm, i don't know. that was really good.

but how are the skate shops bad guys? it seems they're as victimized as the little companies. they deserve as much support as them, because if we buy little company more than big company at their shops they'd be able to overcome a lot of the stress that big company puts on them. i'm thinking about this without the internet part of the essay.

"support your local shop"?
Jun 13 2007 3:12PM
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matthasaurusrex
Posts: 5160 - Karma: 185
everyone has their own opinion of what is artistic, if you try and confine that view to "i have tons of colours and effects so its way more artistic then talking about snow", thats just your outlook.

Just like you might think something is trash- where someone else thinks its treasure.


But besides that the commentary came off like a joke or an LOL moment fr the viewers...well for me anyway.
Jun 13 2007 3:24PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
yeah I know, I said that was just my opinion like 4 times haha
Jun 13 2007 3:27PM
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bob_dole
Posts: 4078 - Karma: 1,580
those flaws you pointed out with sound in the field is just that, flaws. of course you dont want to hear shit sound. thats just another part where filmmaking shines through. it has everything included in that package, sound as well. you should go out and buy a wireless mic for the rider...sounds soooooo sick. just as you said some companies are avoiding the higher skill level by not "editing" enough in the movies, it could be turned around to you skipping out on a certain aspect of filmmaking by exluding audio all together. but then again, thats your choice with how you make your stuff. i personally think audio should be a major part in any video/film
Jun 13 2007 8:24PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
yeah you make a good point but sound isnt really a priority for me right now haha. And I dont mean wireless mic like what Pete O used in X=Ten, I think those are pointless...unless the rider is narrating the trick AS hes doing it ahaha (that was pretty funny actually).
I meant an actual studio-style field mixer and boom pole and shit. I mean I'm going to spend my money on a wide angle, super8 film, dollies, a 35mm DOF adapter, and a ladder before I buy a nice mic setup.
Jun 13 2007 8:36PM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
MSP: Please continue to use heli/sunset shots. Every year, they are among the best skiing images created. Saying I don't want to see those because I saw them last year is like saying I don't want to hit jumps because I hit jumps last year.

Timoski: If you're going to try to write like a high school substitute English teacher, please do the following:
-Nest bulleted lists.
-Always be sure to recheck your work for logical fluency
before submitting it: You end one paragraph by
introducing a rebuttal; but you start the next with the
word "however." Are you illustrating contrast to your
desire to rebut? That is what "however" seems to imply in
this case. HOWEVER, that is certainly not what you mean
to do.
-Capitalize proper nouns, proper pronouns ("I"),initials,
and the first word of EVERY sentence.
-Choose either numbered or unnumbered lists: Don't use
both in the same in one composition, unless order is of
particular importance to one list and not to the others.

And the constant misuse (and disuse) of commas, colons, and periods doesn't help either.
Jun 13 2007 11:35PM
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MadSteezin
Posts: 4572 - Karma: 936
haha! you totally smashed him Symms!
Jun 14 2007 12:19AM
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MaskSalesman
Posts: 29 - Karma: 10
i see madsteezin's making an awesome thread debut.
Jun 14 2007 12:37AM
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ThaLetterM.
Posts: 8609 - Karma: 1,613
all i want..al ive ever wanted in a ski movie...is to watch it and say "wow. i want to go ski now."

when i watch something by poor boyz or msp or even level 1 sometimes, i get the impression that they are trying to show some faux-artistic style that is nothing but time lapses and shitty techno music.

i want a movie that breaks away and makes me wanna ski, not something that is trying to tell me what skiing should be.

now go...impress me.
Jun 14 2007 12:45AM
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timoski
Posts: 3036 - Karma: 45
look over there! a shiny mirror!
Jun 14 2007 1:01AM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
Oh, my God! I didn't think it was possible, but I just got better looking.
Jun 14 2007 1:12AM
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simmers
Posts: 1004 - Karma: 397
I always look really good when I lean my upper body back and pull down on the skin on my stomach. It makes my abs look really ripped.
Jun 14 2007 1:48AM
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gaydar
Posts: 543 - Karma: 5
You overlooked the marketing aspect of the essay. Big company product is always pushed to the front of the store and sold cheaper than the more independent company items, the shop sells the product and they are not pulling for the little guys. Walk into a general ski shop (not your local X - STREEM shop) and compare in store placement of niche company products with large company products. Tell your dad to walk into the store after you and ask Brad the indoor-sunglass toting employee what skis would be good for all mountain and he wont grab a pair of armadas or lines, even though they ride great for skiers of all levels (soft springy flex, durable).

We didn't sell a single set of Joystick poles for 2 weeks at the shop i used to work at until i moved them from the far corner to the front of the shop - had they stayed in the corner they wouldnt have moved and im sure anthony could have expected a much smaller order the next year.

Shops are taking shit because they dont try to sell niche product then turn around and claim its not profitable.

I got off topic, but ski movies are no different.
Jun 14 2007 3:38AM
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