For you 9/11 conspiracy people.

If the Bush admin was looking for reasons to attack Iraq, well, 9/11 wasn't a very good one.

no, but it gave the u.s. citizens a reason to rally behind their government

Ah, calling me a dumbass? You are so insightful. I guess I wouldn't know anything about oil prices, my father doesn't own an oil company or anything.

Oh you are so on top of your facts. Katrina really is responsible for the refiniries. It couldn't possibly be the fact we haven't built any new ones since the 80's. I guess I am just too dumb for the presence of your intelligence.

I'm the retard? Hmmm so you saw the Pentagon right? I mean there was no damage in front of the building or anything. Those pictures you saw were taken AFTER that was cleaned up. You have seen biased pictures taken from angles only discrete to those that are dumb enough to believe in theories like yours. The hole was relevant to the size of the plane you dumb fuck. The holes the wings created were blocked by rubble.

Ah you certainly have proved me to be a dumbass. I appreciate your remarks and hope my sarcastic tone isn't too much for your inane thought process to handle. Oh and please, anytime you would like to bring about an argument with me, don't start your post referring to my statements suppourting your argument. They really had nothing to do with it. Good day.

Such a small hole...

Now to let you in on a little proportion. That ladder is about 110 feet long. It shows about 2/3 of it and based on the fact that almost every ladder fire truck like that is 110 feet long.

Now a little simple math shows us that it is about 74 feet long.

110*.67=73.7

Now take 74 and multiply it by 3. That's 222 feet. (Hooray arithmitic.)

The wingspan of a 777 is about 190 feet. Now let's do the math...again. 222-190= 32 feet! Yaaay look at that!

Game, set, and match.

ok i am so fucking tired of arguing even though i believe im right  because all the right wingers on this site although wrong have alot more time then me and are more willing to type shit out. but there are a couple reasons why the pentagon is bullshit. the pilot, hanni hanjour I THINK. im not sure if it was him so dont flame me but he was a shitty pilot and had a hard time flying small single engine civil aircraft. second that is after it collapsed it looks alot bigger why dont you post the picture right after the so called plane hit, there is no way someone as un-expierienced as him could fly a jumbo jet a couple feet of the ground right into the side of that building.

yep youre right you proved yourself so now that youve tackled ns, why not go somewhere worthy of youre superior intelligence you genious you.

Idealogically speaking, I'm about as dead center as they come. If not SLIGHTLY left. He was talking about the width. When it collapsed, it didn't get any wider.

The pilot was co-piloted and that was something like his first week flying when he couldn't fly it. It's called practice, you know the thing none of you morons do before you spew political jibberish?

Any other brain busters? I'm really still failing to see any motivation from the government. I have yet to see a logical theory on why our government would set this up. I say it again, stop creating an illusion for yourself.

seriously do a little more looking on google, for 1 that was after the building collapsed, secondly your image just confirmed my statement that the ground was NOT fucked up, the underbelly of the plane would have left a very long and very distinguishable line in the ground below



this hole is taken inside one of the rings, looks a little neat for a boeing 757 to make doesn't it?


secondly here is a model of the plane in correct proportion to the pentagon, with it's landing gear UP that means engines running on the ground and if you noticed the top of the plane's fuselage clearly is above the first floor, so why is it there is no damage on the ground, but yet the plane clearly would have had to go into atleast the second floor if not third


here's an image before the building collapsed

where are the wings? the engines? the tail? are you telling me they completely dissapeared?


how about the fact that someone i personally knew who was in the military was stopped from boarding one of the planes that flew into the WTC? was that a coincidence? what about the passport of one of the alleged terrorists that fell neatly two blocks away from the world trade center with the edges burnt but still completely in tact, because that would clearly survive the wreckage

tell your daddy to build more refineries, but i guess the $10 billion dollar profit made last year by the oil industry isn't enough to spring for some new refineries

I don't think I'm even going to bother replying to this. Sure, I could just copy and paste what Popular Mechanics has to say about this. I know even when I prove you wrong on this, you will bring up yet another useless piece of information.

"Do a little more looking on Google" That is definately the prime source of where I would want to get my educated opinion.

Oh and the reason that the underbelly isn't fucked up is because they put down dirt and gravel (refer to that grey and black stuff spread ALL OVER THE LAWN). Yes again, your observant nature ceases to amaze me.

That absolutely horrifying.

So you say you're right, but you wont even bother to check or prove your information? Other people contradict your own "insight" (actually, its not your own, you're just spoon-fed garbage you find in a google search) with logical reasoning and valid information, but they're just right-wingers with to much time on their hands? People who actually attempt to prove and verify their information are just smuks with too much free time? I'm sorry, but are you seriously THAT stupid?

That mind set completely undermines the presentation, discussion, debate, and even simple communication between human beings. Ha! And you mock Fox News for their habits...you surpass them tenfold . Disgusting.

But by all means, ignorance is bliss. You keep on telling yourself that you are right. This isn't about right or left. Its about right and wrong. Partisanship doesn't even matter. The large majority of reasonable people know that the 9-11 conspiracy is bullshit. Your reasoning skills lack so sorely that in severely wounds your character.

At least your still a kid, so there is time to learn form this horrendous mistake you are making. Turn your shit around.

Have a nice life.

dirt and gravel and grass apparently

quinny, you are a fag. your so wrong that it would be pointless for me to try to prove you wrong because you are like ann coulter, you will not back down even if you are proven wrong, it will end up with insults. i tried the same thing with scratch and it ended up with name calling which is alot more childish then opposing the ideas forced upon you by your own corrupt government

let me break this down here...

"quinny, you are a fag."

then you go on to state

"it ended up with name calling which is alot more childish..."

do you not see a problem here? you brain may not be firing on all synapses...

What's that big trench with the land piled up after it? Damn you just have everything figured out don't you. I am so glad someone is seeing the light that our corrupt government is committing such atrocities on our people! Rise up in arms my friend, join us on the fight for freedom!

Fag.

Uh, Quinny is straight to the extent of my knowledge.


Now I have proven Quinny "wrong" and he has proven me "wrong". He knows when he made a mistake, as do I. I don't see anywhere in this thread for him to admit he was wrong.

what big trench? call me blind but i can't see one

To sort of quote Immortal Technique here...

To count the times I've seen you compare someone to Ann Coulter produces more digits than 22/7.

oh and that picture kinda disproves your statements about the size of the bulding which collapsed, don't use just the truck, but the windows as a guidline too

*Sigh* Lets break it down.

"quinny, you are a fag." - Oh shit, I haven't heard this since highschool...and I'm a junior in college. Welcome to 10 grade little britches.

"your so wrong" - About what? You have not said anything to even imply that.

"that it would be pointless for me to try to prove you wrong" - It's pointless to prove me wrong because I am so wrong? Makes sense. Oh wait, you haven't told me what I'm wrong about.

"you are like ann coulter, you will not back down even if you are proven wrong" - I'm nothing like that witch. By the way, what is it I'm supposed to be wrong about again?

"it will end up with insults" - I'm going to re-quote you "quinny, you are a fag." Pot. Kettle. Black.

"ended up with name calling which is alot more childish then opposing the ideas forced upon you by your own corrupt government" - Since when was this an issue about maturity? It's an issue of thinking rationally. Keep digging you cute little rebel.

What am I wrong about again? You still haven't told me. Lets look at what your responses to my posts, all quoted directly from you:

Post 1:
"clearly? how?"

Post 2:
"ok i am so fucking tired of arguing even though i believe im right because all the right wingers on this site although wrong have alot more time then me and are more willing to type shit out. but there are a couple reasons why the pentagon is bullshit. the pilot, hanni hanjour I THINK. im not sure if it was him so dont flame me but he was a shitty pilot and had a hard time flying small single engine civil aircraft. second that is after it collapsed it looks alot bigger why dont you post the picture right after the so called plane hit, there is no way someone as un-expierienced as him could fly a jumbo jet a couple feet of the ground right into the side of that building."

Post 3:
"quinny, you are a fag. your so wrong that it would be pointless for me to try to prove you wrong because you are like ann coulter, you will not back down even if you are proven wrong, it will end up with insults. i tried the same thing with scratch and it ended up with name calling which is alot more childish then opposing the ideas forced upon you by your own corrupt government"

What is the issue? How am I wrong? You have given me a ample serving of chocolate chipped, whipped cream, cherry on top, NOTHING!!!

Oh, but I'm wrong so it doesn't matter. Though you have not said:

a) What I am wrong about.
b) Why I am wrong.

How can I make thing any more clear for you understand?

You say the Antarctica has a warm and balmy climate. I contradict that and say it is unbearably cold. You decide to go skinny dipping off the Ross Ice Shelf. I rescue you and revive you from severe hypothermia and frostbite. You think it was heat stroke. I tell your its because of the cold. You say I am wrong. You don't explain why or how. You just say I am wrong.

Ignorance is bliss.

Clearly reasoning is not your thing right now. But your brain is still developing and there is much room for improvement. It's the last part of the human brain to develope. I just hope you put more effort into learning than you do into insults. "Fag." Haha, so adorable.

How do I put this...you're WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of your league kiddo.

I suggest you do a few things. You either need to swallow your "pride" and admit you are incorrect, or support your claims and prove yourself right.

Or you could just run away from the thread and pretend this never happened.

You don't have to look stupid. This whole ordeal is preventable.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS! MAKE IT!

yes, you just called him a fag then said he would call you names if you proved him wrong thats not hypocritical at all

I left this thread a while ago, and I'm so glad I did. Intelligent discussion stops and these always turn sour.

Oh, while I'm thinking about it.

Will you guys please STOP playing photo tennis. It's not nearly as credible or useful as actually BEING AT THE SITE. The fact that anybody is implying the actual conditions through photos is laughable.

None of you has ever been close enough to the Pentagon to know the actual size of the building. Furthermore, none of you know about the architectural integrity of the building and what it can stand up to or what kind of stress it can handle, that goes for the WTC too. Also, none of you have a grasp of physics to understand the nature and conditions of the impacts and the events that occurred as a result.

Don't hold the words of that underachieving college kid from Loose Change to any source of reliable knowledge. He knows as much about complex aero-physics as I know about Portugese lance making.

How could it be a conspiracy? Ethical things aside, what about the one single thing that ALL politicians care about...MONEY. How is it financially feasible to stage such an enormous operation? Furthermore, why would you waste such a large sum of money just you can make and excuse to blow even more cash on a costly war? Congratulations! You blew billions of dollars just so you can now spend billions of dollars! It's like shooting your TV with a shotgun just so you can go buy digital cable.

What the hell does an old crack pot English major like Webster Tarpley know about how the US government works as a business? My glaring doubt is overwhelming.

ugh its sad you wrote all that out,  its also sad you think my actions under the account "fuckthepolice" on a freesking website represent who i am in REAL life. so have fun with that. and everything you have questioned about 9/11 is answered in one place. im not going to post it unless someone asks me because mitch or whatever the fuck will get his panties in  a bunch whining "its not your opinion."  guess what mitch it proves all of your bullshit wrong so stfu mmmmmkaaaaayyyy?????  if someone in this thread is interested i will post a link to a wealth of info on this subject along with dozens of pages on its forum. 

post it!

now kiddies make sure you criticize the website its on and pay no attention whatever to the content and that it has .


http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=100649623&Mytoken=CF53291C-1475-A98B-28ECEE28460BD7CC14693686

Oh my god I an't believe I read all that. I've heard and read about this conspiracy shit presented in a far more elloquent way, so reading this is just amazing.

It is hard to believe that people could so easily believe that there is some conspiracy. A lot of you like to just swollow the idea don't ya?

Simply put, it was terrorism. I get tired of hearing "Pentagon this, controlled demolition of WTC #7 that." We're talking about factions who hate eathother to the point that they have and are having civil wars with one another and hate the West. There have been such an unbelievable number of terrorist attacks in Europe and the Middle East over the past half-centurt that it is surprising when one happens in North America of this scale, a bunch of ignoramuses are so quick to discredit it, and go as far to conjure up these conspiracies on exploited and distorted subtlties. All I have to say is look what has happened in the past with terrorists and look who we are dealing with...

" A lot of you like to just swollow the idea dont ya?"



ok bud your the one that is going on believing the story the gov put out without question. I on the other hand have read deeply into the subject but i guess because its the opposing idea all the research and reading i have done is discredited? right? open your fucking eyes. of course its easier to go on not questioning what happened but when you have seen the facts i have its impossible to ignore it the mindset you have would be great for bush and company if they were behind 9/11 wouldnt it?

get him!!

I, too, have looked very deeply into it, and the more I see, the more I am turned away from the notion that government had a role. And not only that, I didn't just take "the government's story" at face value. I looked into it. There are many very biased opinions that show up in the "evidence" for a conspiracy, as well as manipulations. A majority of people are so easily swaded by skewed pictures or video or just some far fetched assumption (on par with how people made sharp conclusions regarding Teri Shaivo based on merely seconds of video).

Seriously, look into some of the terrorist organziations: they have been doing attacks like this for decades. And by no means was this the first with airplanes. This was just the first in the country. I guess you need to look into who carries these out. It's almost like a resume:

A swiss plane here
Some Jews here
American marines there
Italian plane there
terrorism everywhere

get it through youre fucking mind

Hahahaha oh winterparksuks how I've missed you.

You go on with your little "all republicans are ignorant nazis with an agenda to destroy the world" spiel. You're amusing.

...Besides the fact that it is OH SO insulting from a european point of view that anyone should be called a nazi after what they did. It's belitteling one of the absolute most horrifying things in the history of man. Have you been to a concentration camp? Have you lived in a country that was under nazi rule and therefore learned the absolute horror of their actions? Didn't think so. You're sitting back in the US of A spewing mindless bullcrap and making similies you really have no clue about.

I'll let the others rip you a new one on your political views. Calling anyone a nazi nowadays is insulting to the 6 million people killed by them, you inconsiderate, ignorant bastard.

Oh yeah, and winterpark:

"keeping an open mind is essential, but not to the point that your brains spill out all over the place"

It's fine and dandy for you to think you are correct. But stating that you are right, with no backup because, let's face it, you're too lazy to type it up and/or afraid of people like mitch "getting their panties up in a bunch" (read: seeing through your bullshit and destroying you), is what is sad.

The thing that most conspiracy theorists don't understand is something called the <b>"burden of proof"</b>. It is not up to the people countering your premise that have to disprove you, it is up to you, the one asserting the theory, to prove yourself. "The aliens have taken over the white house! prove me wrong!". So far, the guys at Loose Change and you have failed at that, and besides your personal vendetta against ann coulter, you really haven't said anything.

I've been about as close as a regular civilian can get to the Pentagon, before 9/11. I know what it's proportionate size is.

Yes, you just elaborated on what I've said in 3 or 4 posts. There is no point for government setting up 9/11. We didn't gain anything, and we lost a lot.

Oh, so your just pretending to act like a complete dumbass? I must say you're doing a bang up job.

In all honesty though, you're not acting. There is no way in hell a punk highschool kid like yourself has the mental capacity to consistently fake a brain pattern. You know why that is true? Because you proved to me you're to fucking stupid to answer two simple questions that I practically beat into your empty skull in my last post. I'll ask them again in case you forgot.

What am I wrong about?
Why am I wrong?

Quit blowing smoke an throwing up random links. ANSWER MY DAMN QUESTIONS.

You are the worst liar I have ever seen on this site. You claim to have "read deeply into the subject" but you can't be bothered to explain the conclusion you have reached. So what happened? The dog eat your home work?

Just because other people disagree with you does not mean that they have not read into the subject. You will be in for some traumatic shock if you keep thinking that. Just because a theory is an alternative to the common belief does not make it right. Unfortunately, your assumption is to the contrary.

You are pathetic.

Hooray! Another maddox fan.

quinny im not acting, but i dont really care or put much thought into my posts because this isnt a serious account, i dont care anymore. and again IGNORE the link i posted that proves all of your bullshit wrong. there are loads of info on that one page but nobody as yet too see it. interesting.

Honestly, I've tried countless times, and your links don't prove shit to me. I have seen the information countered time and time again. Nothing you have posted is proof.

Bang Head Here:

I'm really glad i've stayed away from this thread till now. Heres what I think:

Loose Change does present some questions. I'd be interested to see how these questions are answered, like why there was such a little hole in the inner ring of the pentagon, and how no cars flipped over on the freeway by a jet passing only 30 feet overhead. I'm in no way insinuating that a consiracy exists, but I think we need to get the full story, and leaving these questions unanswered only will breed more stupid stuff about the government trying to kill everyone. Also, the 9/11 comission report was pretty much crap, a lot of it is really inconclusive. Someone just needs to do a proper investigation and close the whole case.

your still dodging the link i posted quinny. are you afraid to find out your wrong? there is a huge collection of info there yet you refuse to confront it

Speaking of dodging...

WHAT AM I WRONG ABOUT?!?!?!?!
WHY AM I WRONG?!?!?!?!

Is this really that difficult?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

I didnt read this thread, because well... I didnt feel like it.

But the only thing that people always overlook or avoid in this discussion is the fact that building 7 collapsed. I mean, yeah, i get that two towers might possibly fall after huge jets fly into them.

But nothing hit building 7, and it is just as gone. The fires inside it were described as minor by firefighters, and it was an over engineered building, that burned for only a few hours, and then fell in on its self. That doesnt happen. Fuck the towers and the pentagon. Look at building 7. It does Not make Sense. And I have yet to read anything that makes sense of its collapse.

^ Read links directly above your post.

Honestly, I didn't see any better points in that anti-conspiracy page than the actual conspiracy videos themselves...

Ok, well since the last time I read anything about building 7 I have forgotten most again. I also didnt read those links just above.

However, and now I'm not saying that this is conclusive, but I will only propose a few things.

Firstly, engineering is a lot more complicated in buildings than many people probably make it out or think it to be. Now there have been buildings that have collapsed, merely because they were built, and maybe built slightly wrong or with some slight errors in load calculations. Let alone now, here we had a building that had many possible unforseeable things affect it.

Now although no plane hit building 7 directly, think of the other things that may have affected the general structure and integrity of that entire building. First of all, a fire. Yeah, that alone shouldnt be enough. What about the fact though that two really large buildings fell really close to it? ( I don't know what the layout was there, but I would imagine they were rather near to one another.) The pressure alone, might have been able to do some minor damage, and assuming that some of one of the two towers took out a major support or two, well, then things are already looking worse. Ok, again, since I don't really know what the foundations or anything looked like of the entire area, this is again just an assumption. So if the foundations were at all somewhat connected, I'm sure that the fact that all that weight fell onto the one, then it may have somehow affected the foundation of Building 7.

Now, especially after my rather weak explanation, I wouldn't expect you to just say, "sure that makes sense." I for sure don't think what I just said proves that it fell on its own. All I'm saying is that it sure wouldnt suprise me if it did. It's not like it didnt have no reason to.

Engineers build on safety factors. Safety factors are generally calculated on known events; condition; effects. I doubt the fully took into account of what would happen if the two towers came down around it. Even if they did, it's not something that they could ever fully calculate correctly. The thing about Safety Factors is that they are assigned in a certain way so that the engineers think they have covered every angle and made the structure that much stronger than it needs to actually be to cover for something that may happen. However, if you don't ever fully know what is going to happen, you can only give it so and so high a factor. Thus, saftey factors themselves are really only an educated and fairly calculated guess of what can happen. However, it sometimes happen that they arent high enough, and it will happen again.

(This next thing isnt in response to you)

As for the two towers themselves, I have no doubt in my mind that they came down due to the planes. It is really quite incredulous that people think otherwise. All one has to do is simply watch a video of the tower and take note of where it first fails. It is beyond me how that isn't clear enough for some people. To say that explosives were planted, would then have to mean that the Government would have had to plan exactly where the planes would hit the buildings. Give or take a floor or two. I mean, simply watch the building to see where it fails... At the bottom...? No.

I'm sure the government made up this recent threat, didn't they?

It doesn't correlate, AT ALL, with what the terrorists have done in the past, now does it??

Conspiracy my ass...

....keep telling yourself that...

And Matty, how are thge anti conspiracy pages not bringing up good points? the logic is right there...

has one person even looked at the 9/11 truth page i posted? no. because you are all close minded. i didint question what happened on 9/11 until a couple months ago so dont say i havent looked at it from both sides. that page i posted is where all you people who think im full of shit should look. or maybe your e-egos wont allow you

Bahahhaha, are you serious? That's no "truth page", that's just a bunch of kids on myspace discussing that damned Loose Change video which has been proved to have been completely false.