a request for my canadian and overseas brethren

Quite frankly I don't really care what happens in the war. Either Saddam goes, which is good. Or the war doesn't happen, which is also good. Since it's too late for the latter, make lemonade eh?

What the war really comes down to for me is the fact that the US is pretty much declaring it has the right to do whatever the fuck it wants. Not that they haven't been bullying around the rest of the world since the end of the cold war, now it's just official. Quite frankly, since the start of the war, I've reformulated my position a fair bit and am now of the opinion that George Bush is an extremely clever mother fucker. The invasion of Iraq doesn't both me in particular, it's the motivation behind it that does. Though Bush trumpets that it's his a part of his 'war on terrorism' we all know it's not true and his ulterior motives are anyones guess. I don't think anyone can have a truly informed opinion without understanding those intentions, otherwise it's just shadow boxing. Unfortunately there is no mind reading in world politics and that's why everything has gotten so ugly recently. There's a whole lot more going on here then your average Joe assumes. It's not just removing a dictator, it's redefining the balance of world political power. But that's only one biased perspective. Personally I think Saddam had got to go, but that Bush has a whole lot of explaining to do before he can flaunt world law and the UN and do as he pleases. His case for invasion is shaky at best and would never hold in a court of law.

And that's part of what it really boils down to. The US frequently ignores international law to advance it's own ends (all the while playing the victim might I add). The number of times the US has lost cases before World Trade Organization is staggering and the US's vetoing of the Kyoto accord and the International Criminal Court is a utter slap in the face. The US has consistenly shown that it has no interest in a level playing field with other nations. The US insists that among nations of the world, that's it's interests are foremost and that their interests supercede those of the rest of the world. Some may call this merely asserting one's own power. But the United States heralds the ideaology that 'All men are born equal' and if you consider things on a larger scale and entire nations to be men, the scales are tipped in the US's favor. Perhaps it's like George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' where some animals are just 'more equal then others' and thus such balancing is justified. Look what happened to that farm and tell me things do not look frighteningly similar.

The opposition to the war on Iraq is not an opposition to the war itself, but an opposition to the overwhelming power of the United States. Within the confines of the United Nations, the world attempted to create a fair playing field where WORLD interests would be prioritized and dealt with accordingly. In rejecting the UN, the US has trivialized the playing field and ridiculed those still trying to play the game. The United Nations was created in the hopes that the world could cooperate harmoniously together as one united nation. The idea was that international disputes could be settled peacefully by the exchange of ideas in an open forum until a fitting solution could be found (thesis/antithesis-->synthesis). The United Nations was to serve as a world mediator. Obviously the US doesn't care much for that idea. By unilaterally declaring war on Iraq, the US has announced that they believe their own wisdom to be greater then that of the combined intellect of the world. And that is arrogance.

And just for the record I'm a Canadian.

word on u both.
but i wonder if bush is going to attac another country after this





[do_0b]

agreed, same shit different pile
Seize the carp

yeah you have some good points anewmorning, but i didnt feel like reading blinds blinds post, because it was too long
--------------------
Creator of the NS Cousin Exchange Program

'Hey look, it's a Zamboni.' My not so intelligent friend after he saw the Loon Gondola

Stealth Ninja of the Silent Army

Viva la Resistance!

yeah, i mean, there are a few americans that kinda ruin the name. But how can you call an entire nation ignorant, especially since many people are against the war.


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

however if i would like to make a request, as a canuck. Next time, when you dont know something for 90%, the pls dont say it. I am really tired of this constant contradictions, especially when they dont even back it up. Thats where the word 'ignorance' does come to play. As for the word, its connotative meaning, i believe, holds more weight than its actual meaning.


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

agreed
Seize the carp

Wow, that, hucksplat was undoubtedly the best read thing I EVER read on this site. EVER. And awemorning, that was the best way to start a thread I've seen in while. Good points both, especially Hucksplat. And those of you who've yet to read Hucksplat's post, do it now.

And I think that is pretty much what Noam Chomsky and other like-minded people are saying.

----------------------------------------

The Original 800 Pirate

Don't be WACK
Vote TAK

btw this is just my opinion, but these are some of the best points i have ever read on this entire site.


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

well thanks. i hope that some civility can show itself from time to time...








-karma police arrest this girl. her hitler haircut is making me feel ill, and we have crashed her party-

Thank you to both of you. that was something that definetely had to be said on this site. You both made good points, and I love to see more civility in political threads.


Western Canadian Separartist

However, Hucksplat, in reference to the Kyoto Accord, and the refusal of the United States to ratify it, I must disagree with you. If the United States was the only country on earth not to ratify it, I would agree that they are ignoring international law and etiquette, however, that is not the case.

The Kyoto Accord is not yet a legal agreement. The protocol will only become legally binding when it is ratified by at least 55 countries, covering at least 55% of the emissions addressed by the protocol. The 55-country benchmark has been passed, but the 23 industrialized countries that have ratified represent only 36.6% of 1990 emission levels.

So as of at yet, the United States is not technically in violation of anything. Also developing and so-called third world countries are not required to ratify the agreement because the industries that produce these greenhouse emissions, namely oil & gas may be vital to their economy, and are thus exempt.

I personally believe that Canada and United States should not sign (although Canada already has) the protocol because it will do detrimental damage to our economy, for less than important reductions in greenhouse gases.

The United States, and especially Canada have enormous Carbon Sinks, which reduce the levels of greenhouse gases naturally. This is the term used for forests and other vegetation that absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, store it and produce oxygen. Canada has also asked for more clean-energy export credits for the natural gas and electricity it sells to the United States.

The Canadian oil-and-gas industry has also argued that the economic impact of sweeping emissions reductions would harm the Canadian economy, while a flight from Canada's oil and gas would not necessarily mean a global reduction in the burning of these fossil fuels. The benefits gained from ratifying the Kyoto Accord does not outweigh the cost it will inflict on our economies.




Western Canadian Separartist

I'm a little fuzzy on the Kyoto accord so I can't really make a fair rebute to that. However, I do believe that action is required on emission reduction. The levels set by the Kyoto agreement are fairly reasonable and though economic damage will result, inaction and further pointless conjecture will result in nothing. The main objection of the corporate sector against the Kyoto agreement is that the economic burden will be overwhelming in this period of near economic recession. But the thing is that there is no painless solution. True the timing may not be nice, but it is a necessary action in preserving the environment. Quite frankly, we have no real idea what is going on with the environment, scientists honestly don't understand half as much as they claim. What we do know are that trends in average world temperature and ocean temperature have been steadily rising for the last two decades. The direct corrolation between gas emissions and global warming is mostly theoretical but if we are to study the subject until we are certain, it is likely that it will be too late to reverse the process. Minute changes in the worlds condition lead to monumental changes in the ecosystem. Inaction will certainly lead to greater permanent consequences on the environment. The economy will recover, the environment will not. Clinton believed in Kyoto and was the man who signed the US on, however, the republicans are backed by large industrial corporations who understandibly want to save money. The rescinding of the Kyoto agreement was largely a pressure moved from Bush's political backers. Though scientists are uncertain of the impacts of Kyoto, doing nothing is certainly far worse. It's a weak bet as best, but to not take a chance now means possibly losing everything later. We only have one shot with the earth and we shouldn't waste it.

As for the Carbon Sinks we have, we get credits towards our emissions for them that are included in the accord. Yes we aren't fully compensated but it's a start. The Kyoto agreement is merely the first step in many. The Kyoto will not save the world, it is merely designed to help push it in the right direction.

I'd like to repeat that I am not fully informed on Kyoto and I'm just pratling along this time round.

In the end, its basically economy vs environment. Now, politically, if chretien had not signed the accord, he could possibly have the largest vote of no confidence ever. The prime minister, is said to represent his peoples best interest. The people have decided that the kyoto protocol is necessary. This will cripple our economy, slightly, but we are not running large defecits, but surpluses, so much in fact, almost 100 billion, that we are almost half way repaid the national debt. We can afford this, i am not sure, the United States could afford it, with a 6 1/2 trillion dollar debt, and still running defecits. However, we are people of 1 planet, and if we are slowly destroying that planet, it is all of our responsibilities, to help stop the destruction.


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

Hucksplat, I agree with you in the fact that something has to be done on the issue of environmental control, and the goals and regulations set out in the Kyoto Accord is a step in the right direction. My main point was the fact that the United States should not be criticized for not ratifying Kyoto when not all countries have to sign it. Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and Norway have the most to lose, when, under the guidelines of Kyoto, the large oil producing nations of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Nigeria, and Venezuela do not have to sign.

If a worldwide environmental accord is to be successful, then all nations must be required to ratify under the same conditions. The UN argues that countries whose economies depend on greenhouse gas emitting industries should be exempt, but what about developed countries, Norway and Canada in particular, whose economies rely in part, or almost in whole (Norway) on greenhouse gas emitting industry. Canada would suffer one hell of a blow, most taken by Alberta, and Norway would be the worst off of any developed nation.

In my opinion the Kyoto Protocol should be scrapped, with a new environment accord drawn up which is more sensitive to how much (% of greenhouse gases) each country contributes (3% for Canada) and see at what cost these reductions will take on their respective nations economies.



Western Canadian Separartist

See the wisdom of the canadians now then eh? That is pretty much what is being proposed in Ottawa these days, ratify the Kyoto agreement, however modify it so that it fits Canada's situation better. True it will be the canadian bastardized version of Kyoto, but it's a valiant effort nevertheless and a step in the right direction. Personally I'm a big fan of both Chretien and Martin, I think they over respresent the east and us BCers are left in the cold a little, but ideoligically, I stand behind them both. Chretien has a great personality to boot.

I think some people may have been a little gung ho on signing onto Kyoto and putting their names into the history books, but we agreed to it because it seemed reasonable at the time. We should live up to our promises and do what needs to be done.

we need more politcal threads....
Taste Death. Live Life.

we need more National Guard fighter pilots...
----------------------------------------

Don't be WACK
Vote TAK

we need more uninfected sluts

in 5 years, the canadian navy will be reduced to a coast guard...


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

Explain.
----------------------------------------

''mills, whats a copmuter? is it some special contraption that makes police quiet?''
-alpentalik

Don't be WACK
Vote TAK

we DO need more guard pilots....but even more so we need active duty pilots. the entire fleet on some of the carriers are reserves, which isnt good unless you are trying to get a pilot slot, ha!
Taste Death. Live Life.

i know, its sad. after world war II we had the third largerst and most powerful navy in the world. Now look at it, dispicable. We have the longest or 2nd longest coastline in the world, I can't believe it. We need some good ol' red neck albertans in the PMs office to increase military spending. Currently it is a 1.1% of our GDP at 7.6 Billion US dollars, for chirsts sake Italy and Australia spend more than us.


Western Canadian Separartist

sorry, the same amount as Australia, but again, less than Spain as well


Western Canadian Separartist

Yeah, our armed forces are disgusting. Canada needs to do something about that, starting now. Doesn't mean we need to start bombing 3rd world countries for vague reasons though...
What about training ALL of our soldiers to JTF-2 commando level? Now that's an interesting idea...





'I've had some good sex, but it's not very reliable. You can't phone up the sex report, ya know? You can phone up the snow report'...Crucial Mike

its just something i read on i channel, that the royal canadian navy, will be given coast guard duties, and slowly deteriorate. Also, another fact is that in 10 years time, the 1/2 of the armed forces will be de-commisioned, because of lack of spare parts.


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

I'm sorry, but all our military woes can be blamed on John Diefenbaker and the American government at that era. They fucked up the Avro Arrow. That plane is STILL better then what we have in our air force. Had we produced the Arrow, a huge military supply industry would have surely booned. Them yanks convinced Diefenbaker to buy those lousy Patriot missles instead. Watch the CBC documentary, it explains all.

Yeah American corporate interests! Yeah, helicopter that require 100 hours of matanience (sp?) for every hour in the air! Yeah, underfunded, undersupported, peace-keepers! Ohhh, Canada...

But seriously, at least Cretien had some balls when it came to not supporting the US in its war on Iraq.

Make cars for rich yankee masters, not bombs.
----------------------------------------

''mills, whats a copmuter? is it some special contraption that makes police quiet?''
-alpentalik

Don't be WACK
Vote TAK

Nice stances. Very long posts!

Yeah, i personally thought diefenbaker was a good guy, until i read about all what he did. I actually like chretien, but here is one thing i do not like about him. In his red book, he said that he would remove the sea kings. He has 100 + seats from ontario alone, so why the fuck has he not gotten rid of the sea kings?


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party

chretian didnt have balls, he was doing for his own personal interests. The oil company TotalFinaElf (French) is the largest western oil company in Iraq, and will lose a shitload when the UN oil for food program is expanded, and other western oil companies get in there.

Now, see if you can follow me here, TotalFinaElf's largest shareholder is Montreal' Paul Desmarais. So then then TotalFinaElf's largest shareholder is a subsidiary of Montreal's Power Corp, whose co-chief executive is Andre Desmarais. Now Andre Desmarais is married to Jean Chretiens daughter, France. Hmm...interesting

'For months, the anti-war crowd has insisted that
'it's all about oil' that the only reason the Iraqi people were being 'liberated' was so that the second biggest oil reserves in the world could be annexed in perpetuity by Dick Cheney and Halliburton and the rest of Bush's Texas oilpatch gang. Instead, it turns out that, if it is all about oil, then the principal North American beneficiary of the continued enslavement of the Iraqi people is the family on the Canadian Prime Minister -- that's to say, his Daughter France Chretien, and his grandchildren.'

A quote from my good friend Mark Steyn, of the National Post.

take that you Chretien lovin' sons of bitches.


Western Canadian Separartist

^word, i was watchin ctvnewsnet, and it showed the iraqi ppl protesting the american 'occupation'. They have written signs saying 'bush only wants the oil, not to help us'. It was crazy! And i also saw a virtual tour of baghdad before the war, i must say, it was like a city in florida! It was so advanced, even the police force used brand new chevy malibus.


soon to be another shit-talker and donater of NS
Proud member of the official NS Ogre team, and NS communist party