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U.N. Observers dead.

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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
If you haven't heard, four UN observers were killed today in lebanon when an israeli airstrike hit their observation post. Kofi Annan came out and said this was a deliberate attack, and im not sure if Israel has commented yet.
If Kofi is right, and this is deliberate, what the fuck are the Israelis doing that they dont want us to see? isnt this a bit fishy to anyone?
Jul 25 2006 6:43PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
It is never ok for countries/organizations/people to attack other people. Isreal is using smart weapons to reduce casualties and hezbollah is trying to inflict harm on as many innocent people they can.
Jul 25 2006 10:13PM
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TannerBalls
Posts: 3197 - Karma: 1,310
maybe the UN started it by creating Isreal after WW2...
Jul 25 2006 10:13PM
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TannerBalls
Posts: 3197 - Karma: 1,310
i mean israel
Jul 25 2006 10:14PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
READ WHAT YOU BLOODY WELL QUOTED! I never said it was ok.

What im trying to get at is a legitimate country like Israel, that is always bitching about being stuck in the middle of a gun powder barrel shouldnt be making matters worse by inflicting heavy civilian casualties and destroying the lebanese infrastructure
Jul 25 2006 10:15PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Yet Israel has killed like 4 times more civilians? Hmm, very smart weaponry. Yes it is smart though, we sold it to them so it must be top of the line.
Jul 25 2006 10:15PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
destroying the lebanese infrastructure would be carpet bombing the major cities of Lebanon, Isreal is using accurate weapons to take out strategic positions
Jul 25 2006 10:16PM
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C-Burg
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 130
he said that it is a tactic they are using to terrorize people, dictators used terror as a tactic and they are legit countries. It is never right to terrorize populations to get what you want.
Jul 25 2006 10:18PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
no, you're starting to piss me off.
 
destroying the infrastructure of a country involves destroying roadways (check) airports (check) fuel depots (check) etc...this in no way requires carpet bombin, as israel as so well shown, SEE THE FUCKING PICTURE I POSTED
Jul 25 2006 10:18PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
EXPLANATION - in my eyes a legit country is one that is in supposed good standing with the world, AND has a democratically elected ruler of some sort.
Jul 25 2006 10:19PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
yeah like the bridges, international airport, highways, all the important terrorist targets, riiiiight.
Jul 25 2006 10:23PM
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C-Burg
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 130
is china a legit country
Jul 25 2006 10:23PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
roadways, airports, fuel depots are stratic positions that when taken out help immobilze the enemy. Also they are targeting a certain cities in southern Lebanon not the entire country, destroying the infrustructure of the country would mean targeting the targets throughout the country
Jul 25 2006 10:23PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
ITS FUCING HEZBOLLAH, NOT THE ARMY OR THE CIVILLIANS TRYING TO EVACUATE!
Jul 25 2006 10:26PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
fuck it, ima go watch entourage, do your worst, ill be back later
Jul 25 2006 10:27PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
it is not evacuation, it is to stop or slow down them moving supplies, changing their positions from which they fire missiles, not the evacuating. An a sidenote, I learned today from CNN that the USA actually helps Lebanon out finacially and even helps out a large majority of its civilians.
Jul 25 2006 10:29PM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
kofi should have resigned long ago when his son got caught for diverting money into his account. he shouldn't even still be there.
Jul 25 2006 11:01PM
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acoustikrage
Posts: 1001 - Karma: 10
i hope you realize that it's hezbollah's media and tactical strategy to use lebanese civilians essentially as a shield against israel. so i'm sure that israel is trying its best to avoid collateral damage, but it's very difficult when hezbollah is intermingled with all the civilians and on top of that purposely trying to draw media attention to focus on civilian casualties.
Jul 25 2006 11:24PM
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grubix2
Posts: 2628 - Karma: 25
Yep exactly. It's not like they're under outside pressure from another country like... um... just for the sake of example... ...Iran? ... ...

I mean all Labannon really had to do was fax them a "please leave" memo, and hezbollah would've packed their bags. Surely the Islamic extremists would have left their closest position to one of their largest targets. And even if lebannon would have forcefully had to remove them, it's not like it would've caused a huge problem among hezbollah in other countries around the middle east. Man what was Lebannon thinking?
Jul 26 2006 2:04AM
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Holte
Posts: 10742 - Karma: 7,819
A couple things to consider...

1. Kofi Annon is extraordinarily anti-semetic. Shockingly anti-semetic. And judging by dozens of comments made by UN officials, a lot of the UN is extraordinarily anti-semetic as well. The UN does not like Israel. That might have something to do with the "direct attack on the UN" accusations. Just a thought.

2. Every time Israel pulls out of Lebanon, the terrorists sit safely within Lebanon's borders and lob shells at Israel. So about every decade, Israel rolls in and cleans out the place. This is why Israel has occupied Lebanon for so long. Historically, Israel occupation = peace (for everyone except the Hezbollah). The Lebanese government is basically a puppet government for Syia and Iran which have been hooking up Hezbollah with hundreds of medium and long range missiles. Lebanon will never try to stop Hezbollah. So at some point, any competent leader is going to get fed up with his cities being hit with long range warheads and decide that hundreds of foreign casualties are better than thousands of domestic casualties. Sooner or later the terrorists were bound to become too dangerous and make people furious enough that Israel was basically going to declare a scorched earth policy.

To me, Israel's invasion makes sense. If a major US city was attacked by terrorists with the potential to soon obtain nuclear weapons, I would not sit back and hope that they don't attack any more because it's the nice thing to do. I think I would want the terrorists eliminated immediately, even if there was the guarentee of some loss of innocent life in the process.

Yes, the killing of Lebanese civillians is a terrible thing. But is it worse than the killing of Israeli civillians? War is NEVER good. But sometimes it's necessary to secure a little peace. The fact of the matter is you can't really negotiate with terrorists. You can argue that the terrorists are never going to stop, but every time Israel rolls into Lebanon and starts destroying Hezbollah camps, there is (relative) peace for a few years. In sheer terms of human life, Israel is saving lives.
Jul 26 2006 2:28AM
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grubix2
Posts: 2628 - Karma: 25
By far the best post in the thread for the sake of debate, even though you don't exactly share my opinion.

But tell me something. Is this really accomplishing anything over there? Sure, the Hezbollah terrible people and are absolutely wrong for what they do. And they 100% deserve to get the shit kicked out of them. ...But, is what Isreal is doing accomplishing anything for the future? And is it really worth the innocent casualties and destruction of an entire country?

"Terrorists" are like herpes. No matter what you do... they'll never fully go away. But when you piss them off they come out in full force and fuck your shit up. Your best bet is to keep them in remission.

These guys don't set themselves up to "win" or "lose" anything. They will fight FOREVER. Just like the herpes, they never go away. And there is nothing you can do about it. The herpes receed into your skin and the virus is dormant. The terrorists receed into caves and remain dormant until they are ready to attack.

I just think thousands of years of violence in the middle east has shown that is doesn't work in the long run. Invasions and occupations are breeding grounds for terrorists. Look at Iraq.
Jul 26 2006 3:16AM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Ok, but how would you feel if you were Lebanon, who unfortunately draws in rebel militias (I hate using terrorists, we blanket everything with it after 9/11) because it neighbors a country that most of the arab world hates. Oh, also, depending on what these militia's do while this country invades you, you could be facing Nuclear War. Israel has nukes, and while they hopefully would show restraint in ever even threatening to use them, its still a possibility. We aren't even sure Iran can make nuclear weapons, let alone give these precious bargining chips away to some upstart rebel movement.
Jul 26 2006 4:08AM
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FuckThePolice
Posts: 2088 - Karma: 17
Here is what you dont see on the fucking news. you may say "oh its what happens in war". will this is what israel is doing. a warning though. its very disturbing. not broken ankle disturbing. dead baby disturbing. israel is out of line




http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/
Jul 26 2006 8:32AM
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Adamskinick
Posts: 3353 - Karma: 126
Civilian death is tragic but you must understand this war is very different than other major campaigns. These terrorists look the same as civilians, in fact they are civilians. They are 20% of the nation of Lebanon's government politically, and are the only military group. The lebanese army is nonexistent, a terrorist group controls the nation. When a bomb kills a house where terrorist groups are holding dozens of militia and weaponry and civilians die as well it is truly horrid however necessary. Lebanon has been shelling Israel for decades if you didn't know. And just recently been reaching this far into israel. I know what it's like to stand at the Lebanese border with Israel. To stare into their eyes, my life so different from theirs. I was there during a sense of "peaceful time" about a year ago. It was very different, if I went back there now I wouldn't be safe. This is a horrible situation but is justified and will save more lives and keep terrorists from controlling a nation.
Jul 26 2006 11:57AM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
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Jul 26 2006 12:33PM
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C-Burg
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 130
I agree
Jul 26 2006 3:50PM
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C-Burg
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 130
and the website that is from is not biased at all
Jul 26 2006 3:51PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Good points except the government and the civilians.

The Lebanese government is not a puppet government. The Hezbollah organization is. They are a minority in the government. The Lebanese government is very pro-western and wanted to make a deal with Israel to help clense the country of Hezbollah. This would mean Israel would have to help build what Hezbollah built. Schools, hospitals, roads, etc. Israel chose to ignore this and bomb municipal targets ie. roads, bridges, international civilian airports, tunnels, and most of the municipal upgrades Lebanon has spent the last 15 years making.

the civilian death count is also higher than it has been in previous conflicts with Lebanon. Israel is not jsut destroying camps this time, they attacked Beruit, not outposts in the middle of nowhere.
Jul 26 2006 3:58PM
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Adamskinick
Posts: 3353 - Karma: 126
The Lebanese government is a puppet. They have no military stance and exist in fear of Hezbollah. They are a nation controlled by terrorists. Sure, they may agree with American policies but have no means to enforce it. It's a war where the terrorist infrastructure is not in a desert but inside a metropolitan city where innocent people live.
Jul 26 2006 4:07PM
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grubix2
Posts: 2628 - Karma: 25
Thats going too far. If you really think Isreal is purposely targeting children and general citizens, you're crazy. But their attacks are careless, and the general population is taking the brunt of the attack more than the terrorist cells with in. Far too much collateral damage.
Jul 26 2006 6:16PM
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CooksCorner
Posts: 3939 - Karma: 22
I agree, people need to see the reality of whats happens in war, maybe it would compel them to make different decisions.

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Those are the organs of Israeli soldiers BTW

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Masked...certianly those fighting for a just and noble cause wouldnt feel the need to hide their faces.

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Would you want these people in your back yard, bombing your civilians and kidnapping your soldiers? I understand the 'measured response' argument, but recognise that the tit for tat mentailty inherent in such logic is in no way a step towards lasting peace.

And here is the grand solution to the problem: You dont want people to shoot at you? Dont elect terrorists into the government. Dont empower people whos very goal is to see the destruction of another country.

Israel has the military capability to flatten all of their neighbors, i think their response in the long haul has been very "MEASURED". Israel country is among the most prosperous in the world despite the harsh political and social eviornment that surronds them. Save the United Arab Emeraites, who else in the middle east has managed true social and political harmony to a comparable degree? If you're implying that Iran, Syria, and the Iraq and Afganistan of old had their shit together...i hope you're never in charge.
Jul 26 2006 6:48PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
so i was listening to something really interesting today on the tv or radio. Apparently, the Lebanese people see  Hezbollah more as a resistance group against Israeli occupation, in essence, this would put Hezbollah on the same level as the militias in the 1770's in America in their eyes. just an interesting fact...
Jul 26 2006 9:05PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
I heard that the Isreali people view them as a terrorist group that needs to be eliminated so that they can live in peace. Which makes them terrorists in the eyes of the people of Isreal.
Jul 26 2006 9:09PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
^well said i think.

i don't think americans or europeans or anyone outside of the region for that matter can really understand this conflict fully. you people say "the israelis aren't helping move towards peace" - the only way the israelis will bring peace to the middle east is by leaving, and that's not an option. this is an ongoing war of attrition that has been fought - with some intermissions - for 5,000 years. jews and muslims cannot peacefully coexist in the middle east, so as long as the israelis keep surviving, the fighting will continue. and survival is exactly what this conflict and every other have been about. for the arabs, the goal is the destruction of the "zionist entity"; the israelis have no aspirations of conquering their neighbors, only preventing themselves from being conquered.

as for the deaths of INNOCENT civilians (in a war against a terrorist organization, many civilians aren't), i'll agree that's a terrible thing. but for the israelis, it's essentially "our civilians or theirs." they don't choose simply between killing civilians and not killing civilians; their choice is between killing civilians who are in the way and allowing their own citizens to be murdered by an organization whose existence depends upon cowering behind a human shield that is the lebanese populace.

unless you've ever lived in a place where each of your neighbors wanted you dead, be careful passing judgment on a nation whose entire history has been defined by that reality.
Jul 26 2006 9:15PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
that was directed at CooksCorner
Jul 26 2006 9:16PM
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KRASHED
Posts: 7803 - Karma: 466
It's nothing new, the wars between Jews and Muslims has been going on for centuries. This often repeats itself over and over again, as long as there are terrorists and anti-semitism there will be wars. This will eventually fade into the background like it has been for years, the media covers the living hell outta the war until the views become to saturated with war pictures to care. Get used to it because it's the future we're living in.
Jul 26 2006 9:22PM
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RockandRollTroll
Posts: 1155 - Karma: 7
after world war two, we put refugee jew's from europe and took them to now that whole mess of an area.

but that was a while ago, before all these crazy ass muslims start shooting gats.
Jul 26 2006 9:29PM
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KRASHED
Posts: 7803 - Karma: 466
It wasn't completely US only, it was more of an Allied decision. It's more of a British incident than American, just read XxXScratchXxX's post.
Jul 26 2006 9:31PM
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RockandRollTroll
Posts: 1155 - Karma: 7
aggreed with you man.
Jul 26 2006 9:37PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
Great Britain actually controlled the area as a part of Imperialism. It was considered a threat during the war because of the mass deposits of oil.
Jul 26 2006 9:40PM
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guillermolongjon2
Posts: 648 - Karma: 10
i dont really wanna get into this thread at all really but since when has war been fair?
Jul 26 2006 9:46PM
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KRASHED
Posts: 7803 - Karma: 466
The thing is Israel attacking very quickly and decissively because they didn't want to just give in to government soldiers being kidnapped. The thing with terrorism is that they look for weaknesses and when they find that the government falls back they utilize the situation to their benefit.
Jul 26 2006 9:59PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
Ok, hezbollah was founded in response to Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon. It has TWO arms, a civillian, and a military one. The civilian one has been responsible for many huge economical accomplishments which have brought lebanon out of the dark and into the modern world. the only countries that recognize it as a "terrorist" group, are Israel, and, as a result of their influence, the USA. The EU sees it as a RESISTANCE group, NOT terrorist.

this is very important, i think most of the people commenting in this thread aren't as well informed as they believe they are, and are running off info given by the media and gov't which of course sees them as terrorists. The people with the best insight on this conflict are europeans and middle easterns.
Jul 26 2006 10:58PM
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CooksCorner
Posts: 3939 - Karma: 22
Cool. Israel left, shoulnt they stop kidnapping people?
Jul 26 2006 11:00PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
once they left, their goal changed to getting rid of israel period.
Jul 26 2006 11:07PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
ok, so the European Union considers the shelling of civilian communities of a no-longer-occupying nation across a border resistance?

and if by the "best insight" you mean "the most pro-Hezbollah insight," sure. that's because, while they might not say it outright, the EU is not particularly fond of the Jewish people. anti-semitism in Europe is much more alive and well than it is in the US. the way i see it, being racist adds nothing to the quality of your insight.
Jul 26 2006 11:08PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
a group whose goal is the destruction of a nation/race does not qualify as a "resistance" movement
Jul 26 2006 11:09PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
they are basically allied to the palestinian people in recovering the land that was ceded away from under their feat.

i think you guys are being rascist against the arabs, so there!
Jul 26 2006 11:15PM
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C-Burg
Posts: 4729 - Karma: 130
what an ignorant childish thing to say, it is like Howard Dean saying the P.M. of Iraq is an anti-semite because it is what is right for him at the time. You dont see people saying that we think you are being being predudice towards jews.
Jul 26 2006 11:17PM
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cottonwoodarmada1651
Posts: 1734 - Karma: 40
well that territory wasn't ceded to the israelis, they just occupied it by force. and you just said that since the israelis left southern lebanon, hezbollah's goal has changed to "getting rid of israel." and by the way, the PLO was founded in the early 60s (i wanna say 62, but i'm not sure), BEFORE the six day war in june 67 when that territory (west bank/east jerusalem, gaza strip, and golan heights) was occupied. so what was the goal of the PLO? obviously not the liberation of the occupied territories, but rather the annhilation of the Jewish nation and the Jewish people.
Jul 26 2006 11:20PM
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hendrik.
Posts: 6715 - Karma: 267
sorry, correction - they are fighting for liberation of the Sherba Farms area, which according to the UN is Israeli territory, but the Hezbollah doesnt agree.


and that comment was meant to be childish. im tired of being serious, and this bullshit is affecting my sleep, so im taking a break from all this.
Jul 27 2006 12:45AM
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