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Political suicide?

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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/23/us.mideast/index.html


This could quite possibly be one of the worst desicions I have seen in a long time.
May 23 2006 9:12PM
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FuckThePolice
Posts: 2088 - Karma: 17
are you saying coming to israels aid if they got attacked would not be wise? thats bullshit. they are the only decent country in the middle east. i would be sick if we just sat back and let them get attacked
May 23 2006 9:14PM
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cjb1776
Posts: 599 - Karma: 10
what is wrong with that
May 23 2006 9:14PM
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williamtell414
Posts: 195 - Karma: 10
we get most of our counter-terrorism intelligence from the mossad, which happens to be the best in the world. israel and the u.s. have been allies forever, we cant just stop. political suicide??? probably just your wishful thinking
May 23 2006 9:18PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Yes it is bullshit. This is basically saying that an attack from Iran is imminent, when in reality, there is no real threat. This is basically saying to ALL arab nations...We are making this a holy war.

We did sit back and let them get attacked, and they won the war in 6 days. Learn your history. The Isreali army can easily fend for themselves.

Isreal a decent country? HA HA. You really need a lesson on the history of the six day war and prevailing skirmishes. Palestine is no better than Isreal, but the only reason Isreal aren't reguarded as terrorists is because England and the US back them. Isreal has committed atrosities just as bad as Palestinian suicide bombers.
May 23 2006 9:20PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Let me put it this way, instead of trying to erase the lines in the sand, we just took a shovel and dug them deeper.
May 23 2006 9:21PM
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FuckThePolice
Posts: 2088 - Karma: 17
just because a country did some bad shit does not mean they are a bad country. if that was the case the only "decent" country left would be the vatican city. israel is a great ally. we need them. if they got attacked im 100% sure many of the large countries would respond. and i dont know how you can think israel would be able to defend themselvs against current iran. they are fucking powerful. israel is tiny
May 23 2006 9:45PM
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dweezileast
Posts: 9661 - Karma: 276
why cant bush fix his problems before he creates new ones
May 23 2006 9:47PM
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Mat.
Posts: 7167 - Karma: 94
I cant beleive our stupid fucking government is wasting all our tax money on that shitty fucking hellhole.
May 23 2006 9:47PM
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duhamelski
Posts: 3842 - Karma: 192
i really hate to break it to you, but isreal is one of our strongest allies, so why wouldn't we defend them. and iran deserves it anyways. we should nuke their asses
May 23 2006 9:50PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
I think its important to help Isreal defend itself, especialy against an insane tyrant like President Ahmadinejad who claims that the holocost never happened. Right now America is facing an enemy that doesnt think rationaly and that doesnt fight in conventional ways, and it is essential for Americas forign policy that we promise to help our only ally in the middle east.
May 23 2006 9:51PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
HAHA dude you have so much to learn about the IDF (Isreali Defense Forces). Iran is a shit-ridden army with an economy based on oil. They have nowhere near the technology Isreal has. Iran could never defeat Isreal in a war. Isreal's air force nearly quadruples the capability of anything Iran could dish out. They have so much invested in radar and defense systems that it isn't even funny. You think we spend a lot on homeland secuirty...HAH you should take a look at the portion out of their per capita is spent on defense.

Egypt at its prime, Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Palestinian guerillas could not beat Isreal when they were all allied. Never mind how much stronger Isreal's military has become. They have a conscription in effect that is MANDITORY. You are required as a male in good health to serve 2 years in the Isreali military.
May 23 2006 9:52PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Yes we should "defend" them, but coming out of nowhere and saying Iran we don't like you and we are siding with Isreal. This is making us look like a war is coming. Refer to my sand analogy.
May 23 2006 9:53PM
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holyDINOSAURS
Posts: 7038 - Karma: 639
hahahhaha im not sure about that one
May 23 2006 9:56PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
Isreal does have an increable defence system and i wouldn't be surprised to hear that "somehow" Irans nuclear sites were just "destroyed".. aka taken out by isreals special ops. The thing is that Isreal has to spend a ton on defence becuase they are the most hated country in the world and are surronded by their enemies. It would be foolish for Isreal not to invest massive amounts in their defence sytems.
May 23 2006 9:56PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
I never said it was a bad thing, the person said Isreal was weak. I was simply stating that they aren't.
May 23 2006 9:58PM
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dweezileast
Posts: 9661 - Karma: 276
you make me hate america. i the mindset that you have, you honestly think that the best solution for a problem is to just obliterate it. fuck that, you are a really simple person
May 23 2006 9:58PM
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FuckThePolice
Posts: 2088 - Karma: 17
i never said they were weak. i said they were small
May 23 2006 9:59PM
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hellmut
Posts: 1460 - Karma: 29
Isreal needs an army that big because it is surrounded my enemies. The Isreali army is the only thing stopping the arab nations from attacking. This doesnt make it seem like a war is coming. It does the opposite because no country in the middle east would be willing to wage a conventional war against the US. Theres nothing wrong with telling Isreal that we support them. This just seems like another excuse to bash bush.
May 23 2006 10:02PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
good call
May 23 2006 10:04PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Iran is not powerful
May 23 2006 10:06PM
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will987654321
Posts: 2092 - Karma: 15
didnt that already happen before? i think i saw something somewhere about it. it might not have been israel though.
May 23 2006 10:06PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
Stop with the Isreal needing a big army. We know this. I said it before and everyone is proclaiming that I said they didn't need a large force. This is blatanlty a set up for an alliance of an inevitable war. Read the whole thing. Refer to my line analogy. I am not anti-Bush. Please don't call this an excuse for Bush bashing, because it wasn't all his doing. This is not telling Isreal we suppurt them. This is telling Iran we are going to terminate their nuclear establishment.
May 23 2006 10:10PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
they may have a nuke though
May 23 2006 10:22PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
They don't have a nuke. They are playing a heavy game of bluff. It's not too easy to get a nuke, no matter how bad we make the Soviet missile tracking capabilities seem.

They won't nuke Isreal either. I highly doubt Iran has the balls to wage the first step into nuclear war.
May 23 2006 10:24PM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
They have done it a ton of times, whenever another nation poses a threat isreal, the Isrealis take out whatever the threat is. The only reason that palastine is still around is becuase of the massive international backlash that would accur if Isreal attacked it.
May 23 2006 10:24PM
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duhamelski
Posts: 3842 - Karma: 192
you try living in the bay area for a couple months and you will want to bomb the entire world you will be so sick of all of the liberal peace shit
May 23 2006 11:59PM
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duhamelski
Posts: 3842 - Karma: 192
and i also intended some sarcasm with the bombing iran thing, incase you didn't pick it up
May 24 2006 12:00AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
i could see myself getting so fed up with hippies that i would just mive to the mountains and be a hunter for the rest of my life
May 24 2006 12:07AM
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Holte
Posts: 10740 - Karma: 7,816
is this a joke? it would be absolute political suicide NOT to defend Israel.
May 24 2006 12:11AM
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freestyler540
Posts: 13083 - Karma: 18,725
It also sound like a perfect plan of divide and conquer. Bush allies himself closely to Israel to fustrate the Iranian politicians. So, all Bush has to do is wait for the attacks.When that happens, he has the perfect excuse for declaring war on Iran, wich will trigger the 3rd world war:Judio-Christian VS Muslims.
Fuck, I am tired of conflict.
May 24 2006 12:19AM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
one could argue that the vatican is one of the least decent countries in the world because of all the intollerance and seperation it creates.

Realize that religion while filled with morrals and ethics is a very political establishment. The vatican represents the heirarchy that is present in religion. Power and beleifes should not be mixed. Beliefe is something that is founded upon subjective ideas, not universal truths. As long as there is more than one group who has power and beliefes there will be conflict.


Religion and any sort of beliefes aught not to be made into a structure and into a following, it leads to corruption and a conflict of interest. it is a personal matter and should be kept on a personal level




What bush is setting up will spell disaster for our future. Maybe you're not old enough to realize what we are facing but some of us are going to have to deal with the concequences of the choices bush makes today.

We should be trying to withdraw from the middle east, by saying we support israel commits us to the middle east even more. Our presenece over there contributes to the terror and the hatered that has been accumulating, we do not need to keep disturbing a bees nest, it will only end in more pain, suffering, and death.


There are other people in the world who can police iran if they want to, we were never appointed to be the nuclear weapons police so we shouldent act like we are.


We need to think with more than just tomorrow in mind, i'm certinly planning on being around for as long as possible, and i'm sure you all want fulfill your own life and goals, i don't need any politics ruining it for me. i don't see why anyone would want it to.
May 24 2006 12:21AM
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Von
Posts: 4869 - Karma: 21
you made some good points up to here, but it is the job of the American government to defend america. Thats means we cannot let a rogue state with an unstable leader to have a nuclear bomb. Its just to dangerous.
May 24 2006 12:25AM
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J.D.
Posts: 21362 - Karma: 5,142
It's not political suicide if they were planning to engage in military action in Iran anyway. This just makes it look more defensive should that come to pass. Not that I'm totally sure it will... but it would be a pseudo-excuse, if you buy it. So, not political suicide. More fearmongering... hey, it's worked in the past for them. What, you expected this administration to change its tactics just because of a few record-low approval rating polls? That would almost be like admitting they were wrong.
May 24 2006 1:28AM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
jokes on israel. the patriot missiles that we gave them are pretty much useless anyways. poor bastards.
May 24 2006 1:51AM
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reggyboy
Posts: 1608 - Karma: 13
palestine and alot of the remaining islamic world would now have more problems wid the US probs not political suicide but it isnt the most inteligent thing to do at this time
May 24 2006 1:56AM
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yeti
Posts: 6335 - Karma: 17
i really both feel sorry for the people of israel and have a degree of anger.

I know they were put in a fucked up situation...given a swath of land in a predominently muslim land in 47 (regardless of historical roots etc) and forced to try and make the best out of it. At the same time, they have used the excuse of "security" to do some pretty horrific thing to the palestinian people.

Neither side is innocent in it, but neither side is any better than the rest.

I dont agree with the US's stance. Coming out like that and pretty much drawing a line in the sand isnt going to accomplish anything, its only going to bring more tension to the situation.

I wouldnt be surprised if israel takes out the Iranian enrichment sites. They did it to Iraq in the 80's, so it wouldnt surprise me if they did. However, it just seems like a very easy way to draw Iran into a conflict and have the states stomp in and fuck shit up.
May 24 2006 2:21AM
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whattheshit
Posts: 6562 - Karma: 107
enrichment sites are 75 feet underground.

only a tactical nuke bunker buster would do damage.

and yes, you are right about the iraq thing. that was osirak, israel flew f-16/15's in a tight formation to resemble a commericial airliner. the israelis were in and out before the iraqis could boot up their primitive soviet SAM sites.
May 24 2006 2:28AM
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Mattman
Posts: 19108 - Karma: 16
yea I saw that as well, wow about the Chinese build-up.

The end of the world could be closer then you think...

If China attacked Tawian and Iran attacked Isreal...then the world would be fucked not to mention a terroist attack on US soil wihich will happen soonor or later
May 24 2006 2:33AM
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Holte
Posts: 10740 - Karma: 7,816
it's all about nuclear weapons. The fact of the matter is Iran is run by a madman who is trying desperately to develop nuclear technology. Common sense tells us that madman+nukes=bad.

So on one hand, Bush's declaration to defend Israel is a goodwill gesture toward our longtime ally, but more importantly, it's a deterrent against Iran's nuclear program. Yes, Israel has a competent military, but the thought of Iran having to fight Israel AND the USA is a significantly more serious matter than fighting a war only against Israel. It's so serious a matter that it might make Mahmoud Ahmadinejad think twice about threatening Israel with nukes.

You can call Bush an idiot, but he would have to be mind-numbingly insane to declare war on Iran considering his current approval rating and the current involvement in Iraq. Basically, Bush is telling Ahmadinejad that if he builds nukes, he's gonna have a more to deal with than just Israel.
May 24 2006 3:08AM
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mad_540_trix
Posts: 2452 - Karma: 14
someone up there said something along the lines of "3rd world war: Judio-Christian VS Muslims" (i didn't want to bother going back to find it)

i have to agree, except China will take advantage of everyone paying attention to the shit in the middle east and pouring resources into it, and they'll attack taiwan.
May 24 2006 7:44PM
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MitchPee
Posts: 8871 - Karma: 1,509
I love how China is getting all pumped up to attack Taiwan. Wow it's really fucking hard to take over a small island that is focused on capitalistic advantages rahter than an intense military. If China does attack them, which they won't, they will be getting a correspondance they won't appreciate from everyone.
May 24 2006 10:45PM
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CooksCorner
Posts: 3939 - Karma: 22
Totally agree.

While i simpathise with the position of "Holy shit Bush what are you doing!" im not sure its the right course of action to withdraw.

Its easy to forget whos really nuts in this situation. Iraq and its leadership was a stain on the world. Iran, Syria, and North Korea are of the same ilk. I am not saying that the United States should run around being the world's real life version of Judge Dredd, I am just postulating that we have super-complicated an already complicated issue with too much analysis.

I dunno, im wonderinig if we could all put down the conspriacy theory for a moment and remember who we are. We are Americans, we are Canadians. We live in two of the best countries in the world. We got there with democracy, morals and conviction. Governments within the axis of evil dont play by the same rules as the developed western world. They will cheat, lie, steal, and shoot to stop the spread of liberty and freedom. So please, i respect your right to disagree with the choice of a president or country but for Gods sake remember who you are and where you came from. Remember the priciples that built this place and dont be afraid to answer if the world calls.
May 24 2006 11:16PM
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pmills
Posts: 7162 - Karma: 59
here is another point of view to try to understand

sometimes it's best to let things play out with out trying to interfere with them.

Iran does not pose a direct threat to us because they do not have an ICBM. isreal is a different story but that is not the US and we risk a lot more lives by commiting ourselves to allie with them and involve ourselves with them.

the death tole for 9-11 was tallied at 2752 people (cited http://www.ourcivilisation.com/usa/toll.htm)

so far we have lost 2459 people in Iraq stemming from 9-11 (cited http://icasualties.org/oif/)

it dosent seem to add up if the cost of spredding freedom is another 9-11. arent' there better options that result in less losses. Every man* killed in war is a man lost from his generation

(*side note to you P.C. people --piss off)

There is nothing i have witnessed that justifies our actions; the war in iraq has cost us another 9-11 tragedy along with putting more tension in the middle east. Wern't we concerned with WMD's?
Now look what is on our hands; a case of actualy having WMD's to be worried about. That doesnt show me we have accomplished security or made the world a safer place.

What we need to realize is that those who are in power are influenced by motives the public is not aware about, and that we the decisions being made are made in the intrests of those in power not in the interest of the public.


If any of those who are afraid of Iran having a nuclear weapon, and those of you who would suport us backing Isreal if they were to attack Iran please enlighten me to how you justify our actions and the toll it would ring on our society. What gain do you have or us as a nation have by tieing ourseleves into a situation such as iran and isreal.
May 25 2006 1:05AM
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CooksCorner
Posts: 3939 - Karma: 22
Dude i totally agree with you about Iraq. I'm not so sure what we're doing there either. You have some very valid points about our role in the world.

All im saying is remember when the whole world (save France, Germany and Russia) thought there were WMD's in Iraq? It turns out that the aformentioned countries had serious economic intrest in Iraq, justifying their position even if it was self-serving. France is weak, they live one third of the calander year on borrowed money and have too many Muslims in their country to take a stand against any country in the middle east. have been there 3 times this year alone and while i love the culture the government is broken. I'm not saying we shouldnt listen to them, im just saying that French politics (German too for that matter) is nothing more than an empty suit, an echo of a powerful past.

While i agree that we should back off in the middle east for a little bit...you know, let everything cool down it will not stop countries located there from not liking us. It doesnt matter if we get all chill for a while, askin Iran to come over for dinner and stuff. They are still going to hate us, they are still going to be radicals. To put it in a differnet context, imagine you had no knowledge of Hitler or WW2, whould you invite that guy into a coalition with you? HELL no, clearly he is a radical and cannot be trusted. He would just as soon shake your hand as stab you in the back, choosing the action that furthered his selfish bigoted policy.

Soooo i see what you are saying. You want to stop this seemingly endless conflict with the middle east. War odviously doesnt work so well so you suggest that we try a more hands off approach. I argued in your shoes no more than a week ago and came to the conculsion that it will never stop. This is not an economic problem, we can't add up the number of lives lost looking for some worldly gains. These are issues of moral and social principle, we may not be right, but we sure are closer to truth than the people we're fighting against.
May 25 2006 9:08AM
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almostaskier
Posts: 13809 - Karma: 93
no offense, but if that does indeed happen, i feel sorry for the muslim states.
May 25 2006 10:24AM
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fukeneh
Posts: 4571 - Karma: 23
i guess your idea of "decent" is corrupt.
May 25 2006 11:07AM
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CooksCorner
Posts: 3939 - Karma: 22
Correction: "I have been there three times this year alone...
May 25 2006 11:25AM
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