this pisses me off.

A sea of protons and neutrons?? Okay, interesting. It was actually protons and electrons but nevermind. (or so the theory says) Yep, so where did they come from?? And where did this gravity come from to pull them together. If it's just one big sea of protons and electrons then they all have similar gravitational pulls. How would any one atom know to be drawn to another??

I hope you also know that the big bang theory has recently (1986) been proven to be a load of ass.

According to the Big Bang theory, some 10 to 20 billion years ago, all of the matter and energy of the universe was compressed into a cosmic egg, or plasma ball, consisting of sub-atomic particles and radiation. Nobody knows where the cosmic egg came from, or how it got there -- it was just there. For some equally inexplicable reason, the cosmic egg exploded. As the matter and radiation expanded, so the theory says, it cooled sufficiently for elements to form, as protons and electrons combined to form hydrogen of atomic weight one, and neutrons were subsequently captured to form helium of atomic weight four. Most of the gas that formed consisted of hydrogen. These gases, it is then supposed, expanded radially in all directions throughout the universe until they were so highly dispersed that an extremely low vacuum and temperature existed. No oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, carbon, sulfur, copper, iron, nickel, uranium, or other elements existed. The universe consisted essentially of hydrogen gas. Then somehow, we are told, the molecules of gas that were racing out at an enormous speed in a radial direction began to collapse in on themselves in local areas by gravitational attraction. The molecules within a space of about six trillion miles diameter collapsed to form each star, a hundred billion stars somehow collected to form each of the estimated 100 billion galaxies in the universe, and our own solar system formed about five billion years or so ago from a cloud of dust and gas made up of the exploded remnants of previously existing stars. No satisfactory theory exists to explain any of these events, but cosmologists remained firm in their conviction that all of these marvelous events would eventually yield to credible explanations.

The present crisis in Big Bang cosmologies began in 1986, when R. Brent Tully, of the University of Hawaii, showed that there were ribbons of superclusters of galaxies 300 million light-years long and 100 million light-years thick, stretching out about a billion light-years, and separated by voids about 300 million light-years across.1 These structures are much too big for the Big Bang theory to produce. At the speeds at which galaxies are supposed to be moving, it would require 80 billion years to create such a huge complex, but the age of the universe is supposed to be somewhere between 10 and 20 billion years.

In an attempt to salvage the Big Bang theory, cosmologists have invented hypotheses to explain the failures of their hypotheses. One of these is the Cold Dark Matter (CDM) theory. According to this theory, 90-99% of the matter in the universe cannot be detected. If CDM existed, it would supply sufficient gravitational pull to create large clusters of galaxies. The structures discovered during the past few years, however, are so massive that even if CDM did exist, it could not account for their formation. Saunders and co-workers thus state that the CDM model can be ruled out to at least the 97% confidence level.

Also very recently, the U.S.-European Roentgen Satellite (ROSAT), detecting x-ray emissions, discovered evidence of giant superclusters of quasars on the edge of the universe, supposedly eight to 12 billion light years from the earth.6 Physicist Paul Steinhardt, of the University of Pennsylvania, states that 'This may be the start of the death knell of the cold-dark-matter theory. ' Even if this hypothetical matter existed, it still could not explain the existence of these giant clusters of quasars.

Yep so if you bothered to read that it should be pretty obvious to you that the big bang didn't happen. Any other ideas?



~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

tim u seem well informed. It's not worth writting a huge assed post is it cuz i think this thread is dieing down, people are starting to recycle ideas etc (im not saying thats wot u did, but in general)

As much opposition and contrary evidence the big bang theory sees, it doesn't disproove it does it. To disporove it, that is to proove tht there is no way for it to happen, there urely must be proof for another creation hypothesis. So to disproove a god creation theory, one would have to totally proove a non-god creation theory, and vice versa.

Now everyone i have talked to takes the apparent existance of othe people to be evidence of other self aware people existing, that other minds exist. Personally i dont consider that proof at all, i am willing to accept it is the case, but it is far from prooved in my mind, and i dont tinhk it ever can be. Similarly I am not convinced that the latest models of the big bang theory explain everything, as any researcher would admit there are gaping holes in it. But I am even less convinced that a supreme being of some sort created everything. I will totally accept that it is a possibilitiy albeit a rather abstract and strange one. However the only 'proof' I have seen of a god is that so many people believe it. This I believe to be far from enough proof for me to believe anything.

So while both the god theory and big bang theory have alot to be desired, I think that the one most plausible and offering most evidence (note evidence, not proof) is teh big bang theory.

I guess it is down to the individual as to how they interpret the different evidences for the different. Clearly you think the evidence for a god beats the big bang, and I am vice versa (does that imply im agy or sumfin cuz saiyng 'your vice versa' could mean 'your gay' oh well)

so ya know, woteva evidence u tihnk is most complete go with it. I got no prob with like how u r tim cuz u clearly know the deal with scientific theories and arent just saying u believe cuz ure parents do. But its people that wont look into other possibilities cuz they are scared they will change their mind that are shit.

--Joe

I think you're right in a way dude. I do believe in God and that's completley through personal choice. I've done a great deal of research in this area just because it interests me so much. It's really quite intreging all the stuff that is out there. It's quite humbling to realise that we really know nothing in the bigger picture of how much there is to know. Like a pin-prick on a piece of paper.

I think a lot of people clutch onto evolution and theories about the big bang because they just simply don't want to believe in God. It gives them something else to grab hold of and something that gives them an excuse or a good reason not to believe. Which is fair enough, I can accept that. There will always be theories and there will always be counter theories, we can't do a thing about that, most of them will never be completely proven or dis-proven, but people will forever argue about this topic I'm sure.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

thats it dude, u can give the same evidence for both theories to a group of people, and some will go one way and some the other. It's totaly like not up to you wot u believe is it, cant help it tha ti believe wot i do and same with anyone else methinks.

yea this is a real deep topic for a NS huh. good thread though, makes a diff from dumb shit

--Joe

you're exactly right, given the same information, people are going to make different decisions anyway. It all comes down to reference groups and personal upbringing, experience and knowledge (sorry, I'm studying marketing right now, haha)

But yeah, damn good topic for once, I'm enjoying it without all the usual little tossers throwing in thier unwanted comments.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

yea, i was surprised nobody came in here and made any really retarded comments yet. but this def. is a pretty serious thread to be on ns....it kinda surprised me how well educated some people are.


'Anyone got any hot sisters they wanna sell?'
-skipimp_

*Proud Member of the HoBum Posse

yea thats a good point where were all teh faggots with their shit postings? thats weird. maybe like they read some of the posts and kinda died or something from the intense quality i dunnop.

well it was good guys, cya on the next proper topic. Actually i havent read all teh posts in this so i gotta do that.

--Joe

actually dudes, one more thing just out of interest. How would you describe, define, or otherwise quantify whatever you believe to be God? I spose it must be hard to define but just rougly, u know. Thanks.

--Joe

how do you mean how would I define or quantify God?? I can tell you excatly what I think he is and stuff like that but I'm not quite sure what you're getting at??

Basically I see God as the supreme being, with utmost power and authority over the world and it's peoples. God's love is un-conditional and without his compassion and love we would live this life and die forever.

Personally I think that there is way too much in this universe, in this world and everything else for us to just come here, live for 80 years and die again. It's purely pointless, there has to be something more to it than that. Why would we just be here for no specific reason?? I believe that we are here to get the facts about God and then make that decision for ourselves as to what we believe in. At the end of days we will find out whether that was the right or the wrong choice. But everyone does need something to believe in, it's a human fact really.

In the bible it says that at the end of days there will be a one world economy, there will be an empire similar to that of the Roman one but not as strong, there will be 'wars and rumours of wars' much sickness, suffering and death. Personally I think that those times are very very near.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

i don't know why or how it all started, but i think that humans will never find the all truthful answer to it all. there are many theorys that suggest an answer, and all we can do is ponder over those theories.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

i think the key word here is 'theory' thats essentially as high as it gets in the science world... gravity is only a theory but its real... but it doesnt mean that bg bang and evolution are correct, nor is relgion correct, i suppose that could be religous theory cause that cant be proved either...

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

Isn't that exactly what I said like 2 posts ago?

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

yes

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

Yes,i agree psychojoe. If you had a group of people and your displayed both theories to them equally, then some would go one way, and others would to to other. it all comes down to personal choice and what works for your. The two theories about the begining of everything is pure opinion.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

so basically now you're just copying and pasting my posts now right? good one.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

i take back what i said. after reading your post into more detail, yours was essntially about finding ou stuff about god, min was on theories and stuff. they have been smewhat similar but not the same...

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

nevrmind... i didnt read that long one a little ways up, they do state essenially the same thing, but i didt read untill now so i didnt copy

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

Let's just put it this way. Religion basically came before science. And you say people are grabbing onto the science evidence to help them not believe. Well say science came first... would any person choose to not believe in science, and come up w/ this radical idea of the ultimate being.

btw...and tim you know this.. there is more evidence for a God that keeps order in the universe and that created everything with such intricate design, then evidence for everything to have just 'happened'
______________
seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

what is the evidence of god?? he just magically made everything?? just like that?
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

prove it... not vauge bull shit proof, but realistic proof and not belief

-Grant

Chicken Wang?

dude I'm not going into this, but how about YOU proove that he doesn't exist?? huh??

And there's more scientific and other proof to proove that Jesus Christ walked this earth, was cruicified and rose again than there is to proove the actual existance of Socraties.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

There is proof that a man named Jesus lived... but none whatsoever that he actually physically resurrected.


-Andy

Attack of the Killer Stop Sign!

Proud member of the resurrected PPP

Oh isn't there?? Well actually there is, there's also proof that he did miracles and they also just found his brothers' casket. They've found what is believed to be the Arc that Noah used in the great flood. They also think they have found the Ark of the covenant but the arabs won't let them go get it because it would proove every other religion to be wrong.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

alright i am in grade 12 so i can't really argue nearly on the level that gravtek or phattim is, but heres my opinion...
i believe in what gravtrek is saying, and i can see some flaws (at least from what i know) in tim's argument,i see that you are using words in incorrect context
for example, you compared probablility with something else, i forget now, but they were unrelated, probability doesn't mean it is impossible, it means the opposite, that it can happen, just hte probability is very slim, but if there was some sort of way to speed up the process of (well let's say the coffee example) by like 1 billion times, then we would possibly see the coffee cup jump in the air, so it's not possible we just won't see it in our lifetime, or maybe since the probability is there, then for some strange reason it just might jump after watching the glass for a minute

also about natural selection

you were saying that there is no evidence of the evolution of humans form apes - humans, well how do you explain australepethicines (sp?) there were different types of those, like africanus, robustus, some more i forget, but those are an example of the 'between' stages, and also we can see through skeletal examples of the advancement of bipedalism and the skull taking shape, many examples of skulls that have evolved into our human shaped skull

also for natural selection, it doesn't suggest that a dog would jump to cat, rather, wayyy before these whole organism stage, where single cells existed, they contained genes , and i don't know this or not but is there a common gene between all organisms? i have no clue but it would sort of make sense ot me right now, it could just be one gene, i haven't a clue if it exists, but that would explain that everything evovled from something simpler

regardless of that , when the very first organisms competed, the one with the best qualities will win, but that doesn't mean it is perfect, uit just means it has superior qualities compared its competitor, so you will always have flaws with organisms competing, they will just keep getting better, but never be perfect, which would explain why nothing is perfect

i dunno i just though that sort of made sense to me from the education i have received.
don't do sleep and get 8 hours of drugs

im gonna give some examples to prove my point... this is on evoltion. In Pistburgh there is a museum, and in the museum they have a display of about 10 or so real skeletons of horses spanning about 200,000 years. the earliest ones were rather small, about the size of a dog. yet, as time progreesed, it became larger to the ones in the present. how did this happen? environment. as time progressed, the animal had to adapt to its habitat. sometimes that meant different teeth and a different digestive system because of minerals. if there was an abundance of food then then animal usally got larger. and continuing, this horse became larger and larger. sounds foolish, but heres another example. heinas(sp) those little annoying scavengers in africa. well, skeletons have been found of a resembling structure. dna tests have been frightningly cose to eachother suggesting that modern day hienas derived from an animal hundreds of thousands of years ago. up at wrangell Is. up in russia-alaska area, there are all the mammoth tusks just lying around. skeletons for that region have shown that they have gotten smaller soon after the end of the last ice age. why, because the food the mammoths ate died off and so there was less to eat. why be so large when you dont eat a lot? food sources kept depletingand the mammoths could not adapt, so they went extinct. by the way, carbn dating is extremely accurate when estimating approx. time. and on we go... not all species make it. sabertooth tiger probably died off or evolved into a modern day cat, perhaps the siberian tiger, the largest of them all. the sabertooth was huge, so its likely. it, too, would have had different food at the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago. everything did. there was rapid climate change and it affected practically everything, so when looking at animals from that time and comparng to nowaday species, there is a resemblance in some. penguins, why dont they fly?? they dont need to. they've adapted to frigid temps and ice. that is why thy have wings, cause they are birds, but they utilize the ice by sliding on there stomach. also they can swim... however not all penguins can live in extremely cold areas. the galapogos have their own penguin that is built more for warm weather, but it also swims. but as it lived in warmr weather, it would have gotten rid of its fat layer thing needed for insulation. humans... im not going into that whole ape thing, but how bout the immune system. lets say you travel to another continent, ususally, u get a little sick. there are foreign bugs that get you tha you arent used to, but if you stayed there long enough, or returned later, it is unlikely you would get sick. the immune system has learned throughout time to grow a resistance to foreing invaders, which a one point wasnt needed.
shit that was very poorly done... oh well

-Grant

Chicken Wang?

now for me say why i think 'god' doesnt exist. heres a question to start off... because so many religions look up to different gods because nobody agrees on the same one, are they all wrong? whose correct and why? anyway, nobody has still answered how god came about beside saying he just was there. im getting sidetrakced, thisshit that the arabs wont let anybdy see is such leuticris shit... if here was sufficient evidence, then whywont anyboy even try looking for it or standin up to the arabs. for crying out loud, we dont even know what happened to the mayflower or any of columbus's ships... what makes this so much more likely and its thousands of years old. my mind is so ranom right now... if he got 2 of evry animal, did hat incude humans? cuause if it didn't the humans could not exist cause noah would have been the only one, but if there were, then nevermind. woh... of topic... ah shit... i forgot where i am

-Grant

Chicken Wang?

no that was a decent arguement, but there are many flaws in it..ill try and remember the ones that stood out. for one, all those bones that they have could have been animals that were not fully grown yet..how do they know that the animal wasnt full grown? our bones change over time as we grow, we actually lose some, so it would be the same with other animals. Carbon dating is extremely innacurate..i just read somewwhere (ill try and get the source sometime) that they tested carbon dating on seashells that are of course made by the animal that were only a few months old and they turned out to be several millions of years old. if you know the process of carbon-14 dating you know that there are parts of it where it is not stable and that the method is measured by half-lifes of an atom. I dont know exactly all of it ill have to read on that.


Now...evidence for God..theres alot. Design points to a designer as i mentioned before, you cannot have order without someone making order, chaos doesnt all of a sudden turn into order. If you leave something to itself it is going to deteriorate. Can you explain how miracles and present day medical miracles happened when doctors are speachless when someone with cancer was instantly healed? There are so many stories like that. Tell me why there are so many people in the world that because of their belief in God their lives have changed. Tell me how all the prophecies that were written early in the bible and by prophets of God are coming true, if it wasnt for the divine inspiration by God that these prophets were given. To believe that there is no divine being and no God that created everything would be dumb. I dont see how anyone could look at this world and universe and say that it all just happened because of..uh..we dont know, it just did.



______________
seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

the know they were ful grown by proportions of other things, such as leg bones and teeth that were larger is someways than the rest of the skeleton suggesting that it had been fully grown

-Grant

Chicken Wang?

your arguments on god are well said. i dont know how to put some things in context for it is complicated and stuff... and all this stuff is just so confusing henyou think how did anything begin, weird

-Grant

Chicken Wang?

after further review, the info on how some miracles were perfrmed is sketchy. cases of avanjelists(sp) curing people is usually fraud, there is no doubt that religion has changed peoples lives, in good and bad ways, mostly good, im not sure where to go with this...

but possibly people have been instantly cured, i dont know, i need to red some stuff about it because i dont know that right now

-Grant

Chicken Wang?

nipe... cna you answer one question. Do you follow the pope/vatican?
-Mike

'Isn't 14 legal for everyone?' - Dave Pauls

whatever... fuck it.. here goes. I pressed the back button and deleted all of the shit I wrote before.

umm D fresh I think you're talking about mitochondrial DNA, its the DNA inside the mitochondria of each cell and doesn't affect the way we look. Our mitochondrial DNA and the mDNA of apes is almost the same and we don't share that much mDNA similarity with other animals.

To answer nipe and tim about the noah thing.. The water covered the whole earth. continental shift cannot explain the water of the 'great flood' draining away because... a) such a shift would create massive and I mean massive waves. A shift of a foot in an earth quake causes huge tidal waves. now a whole contenent moving 1,000 km in one year? that would make waves bigger than any ark (probably constant waves of 100+ft) b) no matter4 how you move the contenints they still take up roughly the same amount of area.
The water couldn't have become the atmosphere because well was there no atmosphere before? there is no way that people lived on a planet without one and that much water in the atmophere on top of the already existing one would mean that the world would be a rainforest even today. and it also didn't freeze into Ice caps because melting all of the ice in the world would not produce enough water to put the ark in it's resting place on mount arafat. The site of the supposed ark landing actually has never actually been found, they found shadows on mount arafat that look like a boat. but people have gone up their and been unable to find the same spot in the pictures and have died in the process but the elephants made it down the mountain ok right? and it was most likely that the black sea was flooded (like phsycojoe already posted) this would make a lot of sense because other religions also have an ark or flood story and actually supports the bible, but doesn't support the 'word for word' interpretation.

and 'If it's just one big sea of protons and electrons then they all have similar gravitational pulls. How would any one atom know to be drawn to another??' all matter attracts eachother. when you throw a ball the ball is attracted to the earth, not because of it's spin or anything, because of the earths mass and the earth is attracted to the ball and actually moves towards it! But since attraction between matter is relative to mass the small mass of the ball doesn't 'move' the earth but it exerts a force on it. So if a mass of matter is floating in space it will be attracted to eachother and as clumps of matter build they will collect more protons and electrons at an exponential rate.

I don't think that the big bang disproves religion. because there is the 'how was that formed' and it doesn't set out to disprove religion! It actually gives tangable details of the beginning and SUPPORTS religion, how was the big cosmic bundle of mass formed? GOD!

If you want to talk theories then message me up anytime but you should learn about mitochondrial DNA and fossil evedence carbon dating etc. etc. because those will probably answer your questions first.

And do you (mainly focused to Tim) follow the pope and the churches teachings? if so read this; Evolution and the Pope.(it'll open in a new window) The pope is a firm supporter of evolution, and how can you say something flat-out didn't happen if there is so much evidence supporting it? can you just say that we are copletely wrong in every way?

And as much as I would like to say that there is proof that Jesus did all of the Miracles, there really isn't. I believe in Jesus but the only thing that tells of his miracles and life, is the bible. The only other solid proof is in 2 other roman and egyptian (I think) texts where they mention a man named Jesus whom had a following.

posting in here takes too much time. I'm just gonna restate my position and go. here goes. Don't believe the bible word for word... the pope doesn't. Believe in the morals and the message of God. The new testament is the word straight from Jesus (God) and it contradicts the old testament ('eye for an eye' / 'turn the other cheek') so why then should the old testament be taken literally? the answer. it shouldn't, it should be taken figuratively and if many people would realize this then there would be a lot less arguments and confusion. Good bye g'night. that's my piece.

please just say something if you read this whole thing.
-Mike

'Isn't 14 legal for everyone?' - Dave Pauls

okay, DFresh, sorry dude, but you're actually not quite correct there. There is absolutley no proof whatsoever of any kind of 'stages' to provide any kind of proof for evolution. Even every evolutionary scientist will tell you this. They can't proove it. There is no skeletal links. Those '10 or 12 skeletons' are actually 13 and they ALL, I repeat, every single one, proven to be either 100% man or 100% monkey/ape. There is also a bird that lived with the dinosaus that was supposed to be the first link between reptile and bird. This was proven to be 100%, it has more than 1 million tiny little hooks on the end of all of it's feathers. It has nothing on it that could remotley point towards it being a reptile.

And yes, a lot of evangilism stuff TODAY is fraud. But I'm not talking about today, I never even once mentioned those people that you see on TV. I was talking about JESUS himself. He's the one that did the miracles. Yes there are people who may be blessed in certain ways that they can heal people and that's cool but there are a lot of fakes out there also, that was always going to happen as everything becomes commercialised and people try to make money out of what ever they can. The bible talks of this also.

And Mike, as for the water in the floods. I don't think anyone could ever explain what actually happened to that water. No one really has any idea whatsoever what would have happened to it. Sure there are therories for massive waves but no one really knows what happened or where it went. All that water came from some where pretty awesomely so why couldn't it have gone away in a similar fashion? It would be a pretty minute task for God remember.

Also, Carbon Dating has been proved to be a load of ass also.

And Mike, the old testament is not contradicted by the new, not at all. The only difference is that in the new testament people's are forgiven because Jesus died for them where as in the old they were held accountable for them.

The bible says 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.', everyone says that christians should 'forgive and forget' but no where, NO WHERE in the bible does it say anything about forgetting. It says forgive but not forget. That's just stupid.

God is a god of love but he is also set on justice, punishment and accountability.

And of course the pope doesn't believe in all of the bible, he's Roman Catholic, duh.

Good post though Mikey, some real good stuff to think about aye.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

hmm ok can't argue with almighty I suppose. so if you were gonna put yourself into a box as far as religion then what would it be?

If I could put myself in a box it would be a wet one... g'night.
-Mike

'Isn't 14 legal for everyone?' - Dave Pauls

If evolution contradicts itself and is proven wrong, then i ask this question: how in the world is creationism actually proven?? how do you prove something like that?

What it all comes down to is what you believe and what theories work for you and what makes the most sense. For me, in some cases evolution makes more sense, and in other cases it doesn't.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

I think it is very important here to define what 'proof' is, and what 'evidence' is. I really don't think there can ever really be proof for anything, there is ALLWAYS a way to explain against something, which then causes that proof to become evidence.

People are saying there is proof that jesus existed, or that there is proof that horses were once much smaller than those of today. There isnt *proof* but there is evidence for both. It is this evidence that will be accepted to different degrees by different people.

I just thought it is important to distinguish between proof and evidence, because they are what much of this thread relies on.

Also I'd like ot draw a similarity between
science and religion.

In a world where no religious or scientific theories of creation exist: Imagine a man sits down and thinks about the universe and comes up with a theory that a supreme being of some type created it. He has no proof for this, only evidence in that his theory fits around what we see the universe to be. Note that he made the theory in order to explain what he saw, so it will ofcourse fit because he can tailor it to do so.

Now imagine another man sitting down and contemplating the universe in the same way. This man develops an idea that all matter is the product of a big bang type event. Again, his theory will completely fit what is observed in the universe, because he made it to fit what he saw, just like the god theory of the other man.

So both men have developed theorys to explain why the universe is as it is. Neither of them have proof, but both theorys explain the universe equally well. They both go out to try to collect evidence to support their theories. This is where the difference between science and religion comes in.

The big bang theorist finds that the universe is expanding, hinting that it was once smaller, and once smaller still, when all existance was at a single point. He also finds other evidence to support his theory (sorry i can't name much but it's there, I read all the books but then forget it all so if i wrote it it would be explained wrong etc.) Now this man has no PROOF that his theory is correct, but there is good evidence.

The god theory man, in his search for evidence, finds no hard evidence at all. All he can say are things like 'existance is far to complex and detailed for it to happen by chance, so a concious mind must have been involved' This is no better than his original evidence that his theory is true because it explains what is observed.

This is how science works anyway, a theory is developed to explain and solve a problem. Then after testing if no evidence to support the theory turns up, it is scrapped and another theory is drawn up.

For example when scientisits were investigating the nature of atoms it was found that a nucleus' mass did not correspon to it's charge. That is the number of protons in it which gave it the charge was not enough to give it it's mass. So an idea that another neutral but massive particle (neutron) was present in the nucleus was drawn up. This explained away the problem, but that was the only evidence for it. At that stage it could equally well have been that a god simply made the nucleus heavier than it should be because it wanted it that way. But then, after tests and experiments, evidence was found to support the idea that neutrons made up nuclei aswell as protons. This evidence was such that the idea was accepted. And that is what we learn today at school.

Similarly, other scientific theories will tend to gather evidence in their favour, while religious ideas generaly have only circumstantial evidence. That is, it is argued that a religious idea is true because it explains things to be as they are. This prooves nothing.

Imagine if my friend and I were to stand outside a car factory and see the cars coming out, but neither of us knew how they were made or what went on in the factory. I suggested that they cars were built by people and machines, constructed out of smaller components. My friend disagrees, he says that the cars are magically wished into existance by a single worker. We stick to our ideas, and continue to walk accros the car park outside the factory. Then we find on the floor a manual detailing the process of building a car. Now I have evidence for my theory. Then we see some lorries driving into teh factory carrying sheets of metal, rivets, and glass sheets. Again, more evidence for my theory, while me friend has none. We can never get into the factory to see for once and for all how the cars are built, so neither of us will ever have proof what goes on in there. I can not say my theory has been prooved, nor I can say his has been disprooved. I can however say that due to evidence my theory seems most likely to be true.

It is in this way that religion and science compete with different theories and ideas. As far as i can see religion has very little in the way of evidice to support a god creation theory, whereas science offers alot of tried and tested evidence to support it's theories.

ofcourse this still is dependant upon how different people interpret the evidence.

I hope that wasn't too patronising, giving all the examples and stuff. I didn't mean to be patronising if you find it so. Just one can never be clear enough on the internet.

--Joe

Here's the religion thread for anewmorning

This is huge. I was about to get into it before I realized that it's two months old.... so I'll refrain.

--Disgruntled and Nostalgic Crazed Posting Bro!--

PhattTim you are right

God is love
New ZealaNd iS WoRtHlEsS

SO there is SOOOO much to read, but i got the just of this.

So with the higher being, who created it? Or was it always there.
How can you not say, space was always there?
ummm...cause it just can't.

There is summed up one aspect of religion. Now lets argue who believes in the RIGHT religion. THEN we can all get together and fight, last man standing wins religion.

Your arguing religion. WHY?
Why is there a need to even speak of such a touchy subject. I'll believe in what I WANT to believe. YOU believe what YOU WANT to believe.
Both parties are happy. Nothing more to be said.
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The Best Six You'll Ever Have!

It's dangerous to hypothesize about infinity...because, where does the universe stop?? and whats past that...nothing?? who is to say what is right and wrong? who can say that someone didn't just invent religion? what is the basis for the scientific findings that are so often quoted in this thread? we could all be like ants in a glass tank to another organism, who toys with us while we think we're the be all and end all of existance? just leave it be...there's too many 'if's on both sides to have a thoughtful argument with resonable evidence. sorry to spoil your fun.


FUCK FUCKITY FUCK FUCK FUCK

'This one goes out to all the virgins...thanks for nothing!!' -- Miles D.

'I had to use this super rad survival technique that i know about...' -- Saucer Boy

*Leader of the random swearing to irritate people revolution*

PhattTim is my hero. Will you marry me?

whoa. Some people here really know what the hell they're talkin bout. i agree with the post above, with religion being left to itself. whatever you want to beleive, fine with me. thats actually what i was talkin bout earlier.




Go Big or go home

Then Go Bigger!
My backyard- the new home of 30ft table top!

Wow, I can't believe that there are smart and intellegant people on this site. In my oppinion, the truth is a cross between science and the bible. I think that there are some exaggerations. For example, I don't think God just went 'yah, I think I'm gunna make a giant mass of rock now, POOF, Now I'm gunna make night and day, POOF...' but I do think God created us and the world slowly through billions of years. I can't believe I actually sound smart, GNARLY!!!!!!
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What do rocks and chicks have in common?

You skip the flat ones!!!!

way to float your boat Chauncy. I'm too tired to touch this thread. to much to read to catch up, and way too many exams tomorrow to worry about this.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What ya doin?
diggen.
Why?
make a hole.
What for?
more diggen.