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Bush Vs Iraq - Opinions Please

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PhattTim
Posts: 13943 - Karma: 83
I'm not quite up to date on my facts but as far as I know, President Bush is addressing the UN to try and get approval for actions against Iraq. I think it's good that he's taken the initiative to consult the UN before doing anything.

Living in a country like New Zealand, I get an aweful lot of mixed feelings about this whole thing. I guess in the USA you guys are subject to biased media and propaganda and have your own set opinions from being a part of the country and culture that was attacked a year ago yesterday. For me in a different country and culture it's very different. Sometimes we even get both sides of the issue.

My opinion on a solution: UN weapon inspectors should keep trying to be allowed into Iraq, the very fact that they're not letting them in is fairly provocative in my eyes and pretty much heavily suggests that they're hiding something right? Now of course a country isn't going to be too happy about it's industries being searched and inspected but the UN is fairly nuetral and the consequences of denying them entry is pretty huge, war against America, hmmm, I know what I would choose.

Also, I think it's fairly unusual that Bush and the USA has such little support this time. In the attacks last year, there was much support from around the globe, this time there is Britain, Spain and Australia. A lot of countries, especially big, powerful ones like Russia, China, Pakistan have voiced rather strongly that they don't agree. Should attacks go ahead then that is a lot of potential anti-USA sentiment out there, probably not such a good thing. I think the whole issue has monstrous potential to go very horribly wrong.

What's your guys $0.02?

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*I love Matty Enns*
#Cut the Jibba Jabba fool! Start skiing!#
Sep 12 2002 8:40PM
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heavymetalwinner
Posts: 655 - Karma: 11
An american writer put it the best. On Sept. 10th if Bush told us to do something we would have said no. Why is Sept. 12th so different. He is still as retarded as he was before. He has no right invading Iraq. They didn't do a thing. His neighbouring countries say they feel under no threat of saddam and there is no proof of weapons of mass distruction in Iraq. There is no battle here. But if Bush wants to go for it. Let him. The US will suffer the consequences.
Sep 12 2002 8:45PM
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Shane_McWannabe
Posts: 1694 - Karma: 73
I agree that they should keep trying to get the weapons inspectors back in, but if Iraq wont let them than the US has to do something.
But until they have solid evidence that Iraq is trying to make weapons of mass destruction they should just continue to try to get the weapons inspectors back in.
If they start a war on Iraq and find nothing outside the boundaries than they would be critcized to shit and would just be asking for maore countries to hate them the way many of those middle countries already do.


_DECAfilm
Sep 12 2002 8:48PM
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PhattTim
Posts: 13943 - Karma: 83
The Saudi president I think it was said that US attacks on Iraq would be like 'opening the gates of hell' in the Middle East. Those are fighting words to me. I think Bush wants to be mad careful. Those countries are pretty much nothing by themselves. In reality a handful of suicide bombers aren't going to do a whole lot to a country like the USA but combines, that's a lot of hate, a lot of anger and a lot of firepower that won't be thought twice about being used. They hate America, a bitter hatred that most of us could never understand. That kind of dedication and incredible anger is a very dangerous thing and quite frankly, I think it's pretty darn scary.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*I love Matty Enns*
#Cut the Jibba Jabba fool! Start skiing!#
Sep 12 2002 8:52PM
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RiverRipper
Posts: 700 - Karma: 9
How dumb can you be...ok he hasnt allowed inspectors in for years, we have let him get away with everything. He had weapons of mass destruction 20 years ago when they were at war with Iran, biological and chemical weapons are just as deadly as nuclear. Plus they were well on their way to developing nuclear weapons 10 years ago, do you think they went backwards. Of course Russia and China dont want to back us, they are getting oil for next to nothing off of Iraq. Dont think Iraq is all innocent, they publically fund terrorists and it makes sense to knock him out of power so they dont have a chance to finish building nuclear weapons. Do you think that Saddam wouldnt use them? or that he wouldnt give them to some terrorist group who would use them against us? Sure it will be a lot tougher of a fight than Afghanastan, Iraq's army is close in size to ours. But with the marines, airforce and navy we have a large size advantage...plus our weapons work and we can repair them unlike Iraqs which are falling apart. People will die but its better than having a nuclear bomb, or biological weapon (they have anthrax, they have small pox) set off in LA, New York, Chicago, or other large densely populated area where tens of thousands would die.


A brave man will not live forever but a coward will never live.
Sep 12 2002 8:57PM
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CrystalineSkier
Posts: 1065 - Karma: 16
I'm from the US, but unlike at least half of the population of the US, i don't like President Bush. His actions against Iraq should not be allowed to commence. Neighboring countries should be the most afraid, and they're not. Also, the UN mostly doesn't approve, and only three countries are supporting the US. I mean, Iraq couldn't have paid allt he countries in the world, so most probably DON'T want to attack Iraq. And besides not letting UN inspectors into Iraq, Saddam Hussein hasn't done much wrong in the way of killing people from other countries for the last 11 years since Kuwait. I think the UN should put UN inspectors into Iraq as best they can, even using spies (if they have them), and see what he's up to. Military action isn't needed at this point in time.
I like Crystal.
Sep 12 2002 8:57PM
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jizack
Posts: 2486 - Karma: 16
solution to everyones problem is.... nuke the whole middle east adn take all the oil



There are two positives to life: you live and you die.
Sep 12 2002 8:58PM
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skodeo7
Posts: 14949 - Karma: 9,234
pretty much bush is going to get us all fucked and we will get blown up!
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Sep 12 2002 9:38PM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
My opinion, if you could call it that. Is that the United States has every right to pursue its wants and needs in the Middle East. Look at what Britain was in the 1800's... They were far worse than the United States was or ever will be. They dominated half the world. If the United States has information on something that could lead to the death of its citizens, it has every right to follow it through. I doubt that if say, Germany, was threatened by another country in some way, weather it be passivly threatened, like what Hussein is doing, with his not allowing the weapons inspectors in (by doing that we must assume he is guilty of something, there is no 'Innocent until proven guilty' in World Politics) or even threatened outright by another country, the UN would respond. The fact is, as I've said before. It is trendy to hate the United States. When asked why they hate the US, I bet most people in the middle eastern couuntries will either answer 'Because my Govt does' or 'Because Allah does' or some other equally bullshit propaganda that was fed to them in schools.

I don't consider myself ignorant at all. I hate what the United States is doing to its citizens in regards to post September 11th legislation. I also am somewhat well read in the matters regarding this. And I see the point of other people. But this blatent US bashing must stop. Its hypocrasy to the umpteenth power. How many people sitting in front of your computers bashing things people 1000 miles away are doing (who have a shitload more information than you have access to on the subject) are wearing american trends, sitting on an american computer, driving an american car, listening to american music, etc. etc. etc... You can't state that you hate the country ,but you can state you hate the way the govt is conducting things. And saying that 'Bush is a retard' or similar statements just shows how unintelligent you are. He isn't the man behind the whole thing. The people behind all the policy made are the undersecretaries, the people who dont normally show up on the news. And the only thing those people have on their minds is 'How will I advance through the ranks..'

I am just sick of hearing 'Its the US's Fault this is happening' Well, I hate to tell you, but the Jews and Arabs have been fighting since BEFORE THERE WAS AN ISLAM... its a land dispute, its not some crazy ass religious war thing. The US is just hated basically because of the fact that they helped the Isrealies out. Y'know what? The Arabs have to learn one thing... They'd fucking win if they learned nonviolent protest ala Martin Luther King Jr. instead of these gay suicide bombings. The Isrealies wouldnt know what to do if that happenedd, their whole infrastructure would be like WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!?..... unfortunatly, these people dont learn this.

Saddam Hussein is fucking sketchy as is... just get rid of the bastard now and have it over with... hes a fucking slant anyways... goddamn homosexual...


-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 12 2002 9:40PM
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Big_Willy
Posts: 2865 - Karma: 6
Bush is pretty much speaking for himself, not the American public. I hate it when our politicians say or act in a way that the public would not feel. It also pisses me off when our country tries to police other countries. I agree that we have a lot of power and say but that doesnt mean we need to get involved in everything. I love America but I usually disagree with our foreign policies.



'I would be embarrassed to constantly complain about my life considering all the freedom and opportunities we have today. People that can't find anything they enjoy in life simply aren't giving it a real try.' ~Nick 311
Sep 12 2002 9:45PM
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wiglaf
Posts: 4877 - Karma: 141
we have to attack iraq for our own protection. They have like a shit load of bio weapons and way else would they have them if they were not going to use them??? we have to attack iraq before they get nukes, they are a threat to the whole world not just the U.S, and they broke the treadys from the gulfwar. clinton was just to much of a pussy to do anything then. so we have to deal with it now before iraq becomes to powerful.
erik olson
Sep 12 2002 9:48PM
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lineskier321
Posts: 1425 - Karma: 22
the thing is that we(america) illeagly sold iraq the chemical or bio weapons or the parts to make them to help them in their war with iran in the eighties. now we are attacking them for the second time for still having them. i think we are being really hypocritcal. we didn't seem to care when whem he used them against iran. and if we do invade iraq pretty much all the arab world will unite to try to take us out. and i think that we'll slowly lose some of our allies so they dont get attacked. also i believe that if we invade iraq that something 100x worse than than sept 11 will happen. i was reading in newsweek that our bio and chemical weapons fecilities(sp?) really losley protected

Too high? You fucking pussy. - ski2824

Why is the name of the fear of long words
Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia?

Sep 12 2002 9:55PM
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Dspin900
Posts: 3512 - Karma: 89
i think its ridiculous and bush is an self centered ignorant dick
Sep 12 2002 10:00PM
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Mashed_Penguin_NZ
Posts: 195 - Karma: 10
Under international law the USA has no 'right' to attack Iraq, in fact it would be blatantly illegal to do so. The united states would be pursuing a war of aggression against another soverign nation.

Also if you wan't to get really lawyery the UN cannot force Iraq to comply with its madates. As all nations are equal soverign entitys under international law.

That asside Saddam Hussein is a huge threat to world security especially the USA and its interest. Saddam makes it no secret that he hates the US.

I don't however believe that the US government has made a good enough case for an invasion of Iraq. What would be the replacement government for the bapth party? Is there an alternative that would represent the Iraqi people properly and democraticly or would the USA just install another puppet dictator. Remember Saddam and the US used to be best buddies untill he stopped doing as he was told and was pretty much hung out to dry in the early 70's.

I would personaly love to see Saddam go but I don't think that unilateral action from the USA is the best way to go about it.



Freshies for a week after a dump? Temple Basin - Hell Yeah!
Sep 12 2002 10:02PM
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jibs
Posts: 2529 - Karma: 48
I want Saddam out of here. Badly. I fear for what he's doing right now, and i fear for what he's capable of. He's used biological weapons against his OWN people..how scary is that? If he's willing to kill his people..then you think dropping any type of bomb on america, britan, canada...anywhere, will make him do anything but laugh? Not to mention with him out of office, and hopefully a more responsible replacement, maybe the UN can lift it's embargos on iraq so that they can sell oil, make money and feed their starving population. In this whole mess, everyone always forgets the people of iraq, what they have to deal with everyday of their lives. Those people are starving and don't have access to the medical care that they need. Of course...bombing the shit out of their country to get their leader won't help much either.

I am, however, fearful of what will happen if any country does attack iraq. How do we know Saddam doesn't already have a nuke? Any weapon of mass destruction for that matter? I doubt he'll think twice about retaliation. And what about the other arab countries that support him? It could easily start a world war.

For the people who said the UN should just keep trying to get weapons inspectors into iraq...don't hold you breath. If iraq hasn't let them in yet, they won't let them in anytime soon. So somethings gotta be done.

______
'You're old enough to know that you won't get a lot of things in life because you don't have tits' - One of the 1/4 pipe builders at snowjam winnipeg to a couple young boys in response to why we'd let 3 girls on the ramp and not them

Don't think just jump.
Sep 12 2002 10:04PM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
the problem is that he wont retaliate with mass destruction against the US... he doesnt ahve range for that... he'd go after Isreal...


-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 12 2002 10:07PM
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Shane_McWannabe
Posts: 1694 - Karma: 73
First of all, the news exaggerates everythiny to make people worry, so they keep watching it. That's probably bullshit that the US's biological facilities aren't guarded well.
Anyway, I agree with Andy there, those Arabs say they hate the US so much and if you asked them why they would just say some bullshit about religion or something, they dont even know why they hate the US.
My mom is from Holland in Europe and she says that most Europeans think of Americans as stupid, ignorant facks. This is common with alot of countries middle east or not, the US is just not liked throughout the world, and the funny part is that most of those people couldn't even tell you why.
I look at it this way, up here living in Ontario, if I hadn't watched the news since last Sept. 10th, my life would not be any different than it is now. It's just that none of this has even affected most of us directly, so before you go and call Bush all this shit, just think, what has he done that has fucked up, nothing yet.
I dont think he will fuck up this Iraq thing, he has too many smart people behind him.


_DECAfilm
Sep 12 2002 10:18PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Right now our biggest supporters are England and... uhh.. Spain (lol wtf). A lot of the doubt that is going into the campaign comes from middle east concerns. These are w/ respect to pissing off people like the Kurds since they will have the most indirect collateral damage, and it might possibly spawn uprisings in places like Turkey (who is a huge ally to the US, and people should know about it, and give Turkey some credit for helping us patrol the no-fly zone). You have to realize a lot of the opposition has nothing to do whether or not it's valid to go after Sadamm, because most people agree to varying degrees that it is, but the collateral effects such as the rising of oil prices, which have the planners in socialist countries like Denmark concerned, because they have effective financial plans that they see bringing them to the forefront in the near future, and high oil prices could stifle that growth. These countries don't hate the US, they are just afraid of what the effects of war will have on their personal interests (can you blame them) but don't say they hate us.

The UN'S inspectors aren't even American, they're British (I think). Alright seriously here are his consequences. Let the inspectors in, find out they have weapons, take his manufacturing facilities away, or... get blown to shit (probably) force ourselves into the facilities, find he has weapons, get rid of him, and impose sanctions.

Britain's imperialism had nothing to do w/ europe. There was basically a race to horde up land in Africa, w/ the majority going to Britain, then France, and then Germany. But you're right Britain did the same thing. They would subsidize local African rulers and make them nobility... they were referred to as the British Raj, and basically a puppet locality. But as far as imperialism respective to Europe. Britain was always the most passive nation and usually was the balancer of the equation, not so much in the Napoleonic wars, but the preceding wars, and against German policy preceding Bismarck. Russia was always a little off their rocker w/ policy too because they thought it was their duty to protect the Serbs... hence wwi (well in a very very vague nutshellish way).

Anyway, here you go American bashers, an American who just presented the opposing nation's case along w/ our own.

Sep 12 2002 10:19PM
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PhattTim
Posts: 13943 - Karma: 83
Werd dude, I hear ya. But a lot of those countries, well maybe not neccessarily the countries themselves but the people in them do hate America. The people that bombed the WTC a year ago thought that they had every right to do what they did. To them it was a task that under their religion had to be carried out.

And riverripper, what do you mean 'we have let him get away with things for years...' what the hell is that supposed to mean?? Like you're all big brother America and all, go to another country, look at the way they see America. As an egotistical country with it's finger stuck up its' ass thinking it's the big ass ruler of the world and everyone has to do what they say. Now it's not really true of most of you dudes on this forum but that is how much of the world views America.

You haven't let Saddam 'get away' with anything. America has absolutley no legal right whatsoever to attack Iraq. As James said, it's a straight out act of war.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*I love Matty Enns*
#Cut the Jibba Jabba fool! Start skiing!#
Sep 12 2002 10:38PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Well as far as terms in whatever treaty or agreement ended the gulf war we do have the 'right.'

And you're right, I'm sure our middle eastern allies do get shit from there people. I'm not sure what kind of concessions we make to our allies, but it should be something that the people of these countries can find tangible, and that could help things out.
Sep 12 2002 10:43PM
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PhattTim
Posts: 13943 - Karma: 83
I thought they only had the right to impose trade sanctions?? ah well, something anyways.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*I love Matty Enns*
#Cut the Jibba Jabba fool! Start skiing!#
Sep 12 2002 10:47PM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
This might be a bit stretching it, but look what happened in teh 1930's... Hitler was gaining power, and everyone just sat and watched as he broke the Versaille Treaty, he moved troops into the Rhineland, and we let him, he annexed parts of other countries on wild claims, we sat by, it was called appeasement... we really shouldnt just let someone sit there brooding by himself about how much he hates America...


another thing, Islam is actually a supremely peaceful religion. Nowhere does it say in their religious texts that they have to kill the United States, nor kill Jews, or kill anybody else. The people that do this are called 'Extremists' for a very good reason. They are nuts, they skew something so out of proportion that its dangerous.

There are extremests in every religion. Look at the extremests in christianity that are trying to take away such rad things as pr0n and shooting people in video games. They skew it, nowhere in the bible does it say 'GRAND THEFT AUTO 3 IS SATAN AHAHAHAHAHAH', but they interpret that out of seemingly nothing.


-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 12 2002 10:54PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Yea Hitler basically walked into the Studentland and took over, that's where the appeasement physically started. Hitler had France and Britain so convinced that the concessions of the versailles treaty were harsh that they felt bad for him! Well didn't that guilt turn out to be a bitch.
Sep 12 2002 10:57PM
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skipimp_
Posts: 5700 - Karma: 113
tru dat

but i think bush has the right idea, even though i hate the guy, Saddam has to go, he's killing innocent people by the thousands, not to mention torturing them beforehand...the shit is sick if you can really understand what is going on, if you can see pass the bullshit biased media. but war? i dunno, that might cause a chain reaction and eventually wake up the sleeping giant, china, and then were royally cow fucked
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Sep 12 2002 11:17PM
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PhattTim
Posts: 13943 - Karma: 83
yep, for once I agree with you. China concerns me greatly.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
*I love Matty Enns*
#Cut the Jibba Jabba fool! Start skiing!#
Sep 12 2002 11:19PM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
China may have outdated former Soviet hardware. but they ahve an UNBELIEVABLE mass of people. If we went to war against them, the only way to win is by displacing their govt.


-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 12 2002 11:23PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
China invokes no fear in me directly, even if you combined their financial resources w/ Russia's (not saying much) they don't have the financial capacity to withstand any sort of extended military effort (not like they'd do it anyway), which also affects their diplomatic position to an extent.

Even if they had the zeal... I'm going to compare that zeal to that of Russian soldiers from the 1850's until WWI. Just think of a China situation in terms w/ Russia's backwardness w/ the charge of the light brigade. And Even in WWI, Russia had soldiers who wanted to fight but they couldn't arm them. So they had a partner they ran along side of and when the guy w/ the gun died, the other guy picked it up. Some soldiers even went armed into battle w/ pictures of the czar... lmao... anyway yea China is still a little backwards.
Sep 12 2002 11:30PM
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ESB
Posts: 9274 - Karma: 10,648
I agree with a lot has been said here, especially the comparison between pre-World War II Germany (although Iraq has of yet shown no similar inclinations).

And I'd like to dispell the rumor that 'the U.S. has no right to attack Iraq.' The U.S. has damn well whatever rights it wants when it comes to war- we can declare war on Guatemala if we want, for no reason whatsoever, and blow the whole place up. We have that right, just as any other sovereign nation does in the world. The UK could declare war on Tunisia, and they have every right to do so.

But just because they have the right, doesn't mean it IS right. U.S. should not force a unilateral attack upon Iraq because it is a threat not only to us but to Middle Eastern stability. Bush has done the right thing by referring the matter to the UN Security Council. How many of you caught the speech? I did, and I was impressed. It comes down to whether the UN wants to be pushed around by one renegade country any more. If the UN wants to have any political force whatsoever, it must stand up for its resolutions; and, as Bush pointed out, Iraq has denied across the board every resolution the UN has made regarding it. Iraq and Hussein are known definitively to possess chemical weapons, and had the Gulf War not taken place, Iraq could have had a functioning nuclear weapon by 1993. There's proof now that Iraq has been trying to purchase materials specific for the construction of nuclear weapons, and UN inspectors haven't set foor in the country in four years. We know that Hussein was building weapons even WHILE the inspectors were allowed in- what has he been doing in the past four years?

THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF ALL: Is not only the grave threat that Hussein has proven to be to his own people, but to surrounding nations. THIS WAS PROVEN during the Gulf War, when Iraq fired off 39 Scud missiles at civilian targets in Israel and Saudi Arabia. There was no way that Iraq would come out on top of that conflict, and Hussein knew it as well as we did. But he shot the missiles anyway. And THIS is what we need to fear.

The situation is fast approaching a head, and I think the UN needs to deal with it. Bush has pushed the agenda, and the ball is in the Security Council's hands now.

And for those of you who say we have no evidence against Iraq- please do some research before you speak up. At the very least we know Hussein funds the families of Palestinian suicide bombers- and if I were impoverished with radical religious ideals in my head, I might just strap on a bomb for the good of my nation and my family too. Stopping Iraqi support of terrorists in Israel is necessary to resolve that conflict; ensuring that Iraq has no nuclear or chemical weapons is vital to the safety of the region and to the world (who knows what Hussein might hand off to an organization?), and furthering the cause of democracy, I believe, is our obligation as citizens of a free society, not just American, but the whole world- to the Iraqi people.

Anti-Bush ---- Anti-War ---- Pro-America
Sep 12 2002 11:52PM
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Jibtech
Posts: 2523 - Karma: 227
Back to what was said before, The ultra Christian right is equaly as scary as the Islamic extremists.

Both have one thing in comon, they are an OUTSPOKEN MINORITY.

A perfect example of the utra-christian right at work in out government is Atoney General John Ashcroft.

Someone took a candid picture of him in front of the justice department. It just so happend that the nude statues of justice were in the background. When he saw this photo he ordered the statues to be 'Clothed' so that none of their 'private parts' would be visible.

Imagine the Italian government ordering Micalangelo's David 'Clothed'

Its ridiculous.
Sep 13 2002 12:51AM
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powder99
Posts: 2761 - Karma: 12
i feel that the whole world is being threatend by irag and many other middle east countries, we must do what ever we can to stop the terror, there like a time bomb waiting to go off, yes i would like Iraq to be brought down, but not my the U.S but by the world, no more should the U.S be in chrage of such matters as if they were in charge of everything in the world. I hope the U,N makes a good descion and decides to rid the world of these terrorists who attack our freedom. But also i think iraq and other countries want the U.S to attack just so they can rally support to attack the U.S, like what was said ' it would open the gates of hell'. the descion has to be well thought out and in everyones interest
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Paulou
Call me the bus driver cause im going to take you to school
Sep 13 2002 1:05AM
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Dkr
Posts: 936 - Karma: 11
I honestly think we should wait and see what the security consells says and pray whatever happens is for the best.
In The Haze - by NS Media, to turn heads, releasing september
Sep 13 2002 2:02AM
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anthonyB
Posts: 19 - Karma: 10
Guys,

I think we really have a big issue on our hands. But, we must not fail to see that this issue is not about weapons. It is about OIL. OIL OIL OIL. Remember that.

This is going to be a war about money, not protecting nations. Every nation has weapons of mass destruction. India, Pakistan etc. the list goes on. And you don't think that there is terrorism in those countries, so why would Bush pick Iraq, it seem pretty clear.

And the other thing about Iraq being like pre WWII Germany, I really beg to differ. Perhaps you should look at your leader and consider his role in this capitalistic world right now.
anthonyB
Sep 13 2002 2:14AM
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jibs
Posts: 2529 - Karma: 48
Anthony makes a good point there. 15 of the 19 hijackers and mr. bin laden himself came from saudi arabia...so why has there been no threats against that governement to fix the problem?

______
'You're old enough to know that you won't get a lot of things in life because you don't have tits' - One of the 1/4 pipe builders at snowjam winnipeg to a couple young boys in response to why we'd let 3 girls on the ramp and not them

Don't think just jump.
Sep 13 2002 8:11AM
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lineskier321
Posts: 1425 - Karma: 22
also bush is trying to get us out of this recession by getting us into war. simialar to what FDR did with WWII

Too high? You fucking pussy. - ski2824

Why is the name of the fear of long words
Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia?

Sep 13 2002 8:11AM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
Comparing Bush to Hitler is rediculous. There are checks and balances anything 'he' (you can't just use the man himself, you have to talk about his whole administration. He's just a figurehead.) could ever do comparable to Hitler... Bush doesn't have anti-Semetic (or Anti-anyrace/religion/anything) views. He's not attempting to rally the country AGAINST a particular race. You could argue that he is attempting to rally against Arabs, but he is trying to stop profiling from happening. Its not him thats causing profiling, its the people that are attempting to 'prevent' terrorism that are causing profiling. I don't see Bush raising a large army. The only thing that could POSSIBLY look similar to Hitler's rise to power is that he's stripped several rights from the American public. But as soon as more liberals are appointed to the Supreme court the new laws will disappear.

Yet again, more people who are just as ignorant as the 'everyday American' that they oppose, just having a different view. You have to see both sides before making a valid argument.


-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 13 2002 9:46AM
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heavymetalwinner
Posts: 655 - Karma: 11
Yeah bros, who cares if they are not as powerful as the US. If they cut off the oil supply to the States then you would be FUCKED. your economy would crumble within 24 hrs. and the states would be in complete chaos. Your forgetting the fact that Bush say ' they have thousands in Jail with no reason to be, who have been there for along time' Just like in the states. They have like over 60,000 or something arabs locked in jails across the country, and there wasn't even a crime commited. Bush is a cook. What about TIPS. The program he wanted to start to spy on his own people. Kinda like the KGB in Russia. Your country sucks
Sep 13 2002 9:52AM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
Another thing in regards to nuclear weapons... Its a joke. They don't have the power, nor the means to deploy weapons to the United States... the closest thing that they have to a nuclear capable missle is the Scud missle.... and these barely have the range to get themselves to Isreal or such before running out of fuel.

The fact is, we wouldn't get nuked, but our troops might, and this would open the way for the United States to use Tactical Nuclear Weapons. Fun stuff TacNukes are... who needs bunker busters when you can just destroy the bunker and half a mile around the bunker.

I posted an explanation of why terrorists or non-well funded countries can't have nukes big enough to take out more than a city block or so in another thread. There is so much misinformation about nuclear war. Everyone thinks it's an end the world deal. Yeah, this is so if its a war between two countries who have a huge nuclear arsenal. Hell, if we really really wanted to, the Middle East could be a glass parking lot in like say... 6 hours. This is cut down from say, 20 minutes during the Cold War era because of our downgrading of the ICBM force, but still. I doubt a terrorist group could obtain/build more than a simple crude device. If they wanted to cause mass damage they would use Biological warfare, probably using something like smallpox, or something like Ebola which is extremely deadly.

Personaly, who gives a fuck if the 'combined might of the Middle Eastern countries' went to war with us. No. 1, they'd NEVER EVER be able to cooperate. No matter what people think, all the Arab countries mistrust each other more than they mistrust the US even. No. 2, we have the best trained, most powerful, best equipped military ever. Anyone who wants to argue that fact with me, go ahead, you'll lose. Anyone who has been following recent developments in military technology will know what I mean... Take a look at the Land Warrior project, the projects to developed unmanned fighter planes, the F22 project, the JSF project... we should just say 'Bring it' all Bruce Campbell style and destroy them mentally and physically...


Next argument...

-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 13 2002 10:00AM
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andyrightcoast
Posts: 5220 - Karma: 18
TIPS doesnt exist now, does it? It never passed...

in regards to oil... we only get something like 10% of our Oil from the middle east I hope you know. We get most of it from South America, and other friendly countries... and if the goddamned dumbass hippies will let us drill in Alaska, we'd have plenty of oil.


-Andy

NewSchoolSkiing+dot+com

'I'm the best from the east, I'm a wild crazy beast' - Andrew 'Dice' Clay
Sep 13 2002 10:02AM
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anthonyB
Posts: 19 - Karma: 10
-andy-

i do see both sides to this scenario, hence my arguement is quite valid. My comment comparing Bush to Hitler is based on economics.

Bush is taking actions which are not approved of by any nations, except for Britian and Spain. I made this comparison because he is willing to overstep international rule in order to facilitate his interests, similiar to Hitler. No he doesn't have and anti-sematic views or those similar to that, but he does have a view to take whatever he wants in order to make the US the most powerful economic and materialistic nation in the world. And to me this is just as bad as being racist, because as you can see he is willing to violate anyones rights inorder to help himself.

anthonyB
Sep 13 2002 11:41AM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Whoever said we are going to war to help ourselves out of the recession is very mistaken. Yea it worked in WWII, and even WWI, because our econonmy was based on industrialization. However, this is no longer true. The manufacturing base has sadly moved on to third world countried depriving the blue collar work force of needed jobs. But America sells services and technology, not industry. I don't think it's about oil either. Once Sadamm was defeated again, trade sanctions wouldn't be lifted, and even if he wanted to Bush couldn't just take Iraqi oil, now that would cause a stir. And the middle eastern countries would be fucked if they started nuking eachother. If you didn't know, the radiation from nuclear weapons incapacitates oil! They're whole economic base would be shattered. I forget what the radius of radiation is that messes up oil is, but it wouldn't be smart. And Andy is right, they don't even have ICBM's, much less the methods of deployment to get a nuke over here, even if they had the methods, they don't have stealth, how long before we realized a big iraqi bomber had vacated the area and was cruising along. Yes the closest thing they can do to attacking us is attacking Israel. Indian and Pakistanian nuclear capabilities aren't as feared because of the nature of their leaders. Abdul Kalam or Arafat are very level headed compared to Sadamm. The argument could be made that Arafat isn't, to a smaller extent than Saddam, but he's just not as cunning or discreet as Sadamm or stubborn therefore not as much of a threat. Cutting off American supply of oil wouldn't be the greatest for them either. No country uses the resource more than us, and to stop selling oil to us, means to raise prices in European countries that are based on public transportation, gee you think that's going to make them happy. We have an oil reserve that can last us 7 years at this consumption, prices would raise a lot, but we would manage. Hybrid cars would start selling off the hook, that would even stimulate the economy. It's the same way we dealt w/ the oil price hike in the 70's. Notice the dissappearance in gas guzzlin' muscle cars at this point?
Sep 13 2002 11:57AM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
And actually the oil that is drilled from Alaska is just sent along the pipeline to China, because it's more profitable for them to do so, the oil industry isn't nationalized here.
Sep 13 2002 11:59AM
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Ski_Instructor_Mike
Posts: 6146 - Karma: 73
wow.. didn't realize this thread was so big. I may be repeating arguments here but I'm definitly anti - Dubya. But on this occation I think he's right. Saddam is the only person to use chemical weapons on people since they were outlawed after the battle of Yepres (I think that's how you spell it) And he used them on HIS OWN people. there was a minority in Iraq that was angry and he tried to wipe them out. This is a guy that poured millions of gallons of oil into the persian gulf committing ecoterrorism in his own backyard once again. Then after he took control of Kuwait and the gulf war started he retreated and set about 600 oil rigs on fire. Causing massive amounts of pollution, in a Country directly beside him (effecting his country). He's been denying access to weapons inspectors for years, studies show that he could have Nukes in the next 2-3 months if that's his plan. It all adds up to something very bad. If he would use horrible things like chemical weapons and commit ecoterrorism on his own people then what would stop him from pressing a button on another country?
-Mike

Mercer: drinking mans protein shake
Me: hahhhahahahaha
Mercer: sick ass
Me: That's the funnyest thing I've heard all day
Mercer: good make it your sig on ns.com faggot
Mercer: and hump the vacume while your at it.
Sep 13 2002 12:18PM
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Ski_Instructor_Mike
Posts: 6146 - Karma: 73
and yes there is terrorism in other places with neuclear technology, but in those places are the terrorists the leaders? nope.
-Mike

Mercer: drinking mans protein shake
Me: hahhhahahahaha
Mercer: sick ass
Me: That's the funnyest thing I've heard all day
Mercer: good make it your sig on ns.com faggot
Mercer: and hump the vacume while your at it.
Sep 13 2002 12:23PM
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Ski_Instructor_Mike
Posts: 6146 - Karma: 73
and I'm not worried about oil... Canada has 9X the worlds supply of oil, it's just more expensive to extract from the sand of the tar pits.

I think a lot of people that didn't really support bush are looking at this as an excuse to hate him. When if you look deeper he's really doing the right thing (unless he goes in illegaly without the UN. blah blah blah)
-Mike

Mercer: drinking mans protein shake
Me: hahhhahahahaha
Mercer: sick ass
Me: That's the funnyest thing I've heard all day
Mercer: good make it your sig on ns.com faggot
Mercer: and hump the vacume while your at it.
Sep 13 2002 12:34PM
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Jibtech
Posts: 2523 - Karma: 227
Gas guzzling muscle cars of the 70s may have disapeard but they have re-apeared in the form of HUGE SUV's driven by lunatic moms trying to get 10 kids to soccer practice on time.
Rap n' Roll sucks.
Sep 13 2002 1:34PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Yea because gas is cheap enough for it to be affordable. If you saw gas go up to 3 dollars a gallon, SUV sales will plummet.
Sep 13 2002 2:05PM
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gravteck
Posts: 2390 - Karma: 13
Over in Sweden and stuff gas prices incorporate national taxes, and last time I read some report they had an equivalent price of 6 dollars a gallon. You don't see many people in Europe flossin in SUV's because there gas is more expensive, because they rely more on public transportation, and that's it's hella expensive to get their license over there in the first place. I think in Germany it comes out to 2000 dollars before you actually have your license, and you can't get it until you're 18 either.
Sep 13 2002 2:12PM
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vegabond
Posts: 1235 - Karma: 11
i happen to be iraqi, and if bush thinks he is tough by eliminating hes 'act of evil' hes been smokin too much pot.. he is a dumbfuck to start a war in the middle east to start with, cause us arabs usually stick together. and why the fuck do you think sept. 11th happend? cause the US wont stop fuking bombing our fuking countries. and really, sadam is anything but afraid of war. he has nothing left to lost. the US allready destroyed his country with the gulf war, he can just go crazy now, and kno that his poulation is diesing anywase cause the US is robbing us of all the means to live with. oil for food my ass. 1000litres of gas for 30cents. sound fair to you?

Moe.
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Pimps don't pay taxes.
Sep 13 2002 5:27PM
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What
Posts: 1307 - Karma: 30
ok here is my BUllshit and uneducated opinion becauSe i cant be fucked reading all those long ass replies and wHatever else was said

ok, didnt the uSa sUpply nukes and Crap to iraq like 10 years bacK or whatever for Some war against some other country?
and yes bush is after the oil

what?
Sep 13 2002 5:53PM
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i_am_retarded
Posts: 581 - Karma: 10
im so drunk

-------------------------

'sweet i can be seen sober with you' -- my friend dom to a previously not hot, now hot girl he was meeting.
Sep 13 2002 5:57PM
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ESB
Posts: 9274 - Karma: 10,648
Uh, no, what, I don't think that the US has any history of giving away nuclear weaponry.

Anthony is right regarding the oil issue, which is an underlying foundation to all our war threats. And heavymetalwinner I don't know what the hell you're talking about. There are certainly not 60,000 arabs being held without due process in the US... I know of 300-600. And it's certainly not right, Ashcroft is a little bitch and holding prisoners without charges, trial, or media coverage is a huge crop of bullshit. Also without mideast oil we would certainly NOT crumble in 24 hourse... US oil reserves are enough to last for several months, and if things got bad we'd just desecrate Alaska.

'Our society places a supreme value on control, on hiding what you feel. It mocks primitive culture and prides itself on the suppression of natural instincts and impulses.' - Jim Morrison
Sep 13 2002 6:27PM
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