Member of the Month

KilaTsunami
October, 2024

Online

Welcome to the Newschoolers forums! You may read the forums as a guest, however you must be a registered member to post. Register to become a member today!

Sooth ski: measured data from 3000+ skis!

profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Hi guys,

I am new here. I have been measuring skis for 15+ years, first as an undergrad design project, then in a research lab and now through a startup (Sooth Skis). We measure the "fundamental properties" of skis along their full length (e.g., width, height, mass, bending stiffness / flex and torsional stiffness), so you can know, for example, that the tip of a ski is much stiffer than another ski. We think this is better than just having an average number. We also measure the torsional stiffness, which is a big part of what make a ski being playful or grippy. We found that freeskiing skis generally have a low torsional stiffness for more playfulness...

Anyways, after measuring that raw data, we convert it into slightly more useable numbers and graphs. We still have work to do on that front and hope that the community can provide feedback. All the data is available online in a "comparator". Access is free. No registration needed. You can access the comparator here:
https://compareskis.shinyapps.io/compare/

We have more than 3000 skis in the comparator now, including 1200 from 2021-22. We try to measure all the lengths available, as each company scale their skis differently.

We think this can help people shop for skis. We also think that over time each skier will get to know what they personally like in a ski and be able to use the comparator efficiently. It is still very raw information, but once you start using it we feel there is no going back. We don't really know where this will lead us, but we would like to continue measuring skis if other people also find it useful. We think this can be complementary to on-snow reviews, and specially useful when reviews are not available in the model/length of interest or if you can't demo.

We are still missing many brands, but are very willing to measure any skis manufacturers would send us. So far we have been measuring skis from what is available in shops around Quebec, including Ski Michel, Oberson, Ski Town, D-Structure, Sport Radical and Ski Essentials. We are thankful for their help. Please encourage them if you can.

I will reply to a few recent threads with exemples on how to use the comparator. We think it is pretty self explanatory, but we wrote a short tutorial the basic functions:
https://soothski.com/compare-skis-with-measures/2021/ski-comparison-application-guide/

Hope you find this useful!

Alexis
Nov 27 2021 5:51PM
141 1
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
FYI, we added the running length to our table of measurements... seems to be pretty important to figure out how easy it is to pivot a ski while it is in contact with the snow (e.g., base flat on snow). We think it is a big part of what makes a ski "playful" with torsional stiffness.
Dec 19 2021 12:08PM
1 0
profile picture
Eightsails
Posts: 150 - Karma: 1,621
Small idea, I have no idea if this would be way too difficult to code, but maybe the option to move the ski forward or backward from its rec mount point? Would like to see how skis match up with profiles within some adjustment range, since a lot of folk like to play around with mounting. Maybe since you have the data you can throw up what the width of the ski would be depending on where you put the mount line.
Jan 12 2022 3:16PM
1 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
EightsailsSmall idea, I have no idea if this would be way too difficult to code, but maybe the option to move the ski forward or backward from its rec mount point? Would like to see how skis match up with profiles within some adjustment range, since a lot of folk like to play around with mounting. Maybe since you have the data you can throw up what the width of the ski would be depending on where you put the mount line.


Just to be sure that I understand correctly, you would like to be able to shift the skis horizontally on the graphs representing the shape of the ski to better align them?

And then, you would like to have an updated value of the waist at the new mount point? I would need to check the code, but I think now the waist width value is the minimum width measured, not the one at the mount point.

I think all that might be relatively easy to implement. It just get messy a bit if you have to recalculate a bunch of other value (e.g., the 5-point stiffness measurements are centered at the mount point), but we don't have many of them right now. I could see in the future that we could have a bunch of front/back ratios, but we don't have that yet.
Jan 16 2022 3:54PM
1 0
profile picture
Eightsails
Posts: 150 - Karma: 1,621
aludeJust to be sure that I understand correctly, you would like to be able to shift the skis horizontally on the graphs representing the shape of the ski to better align them?

And then, you would like to have an updated value of the waist at the new mount point? I would need to check the code, but I think now the waist width value is the minimum width measured, not the one at the mount point.

I think all that might be relatively easy to implement. It just get messy a bit if you have to recalculate a bunch of other value (e.g., the 5-point stiffness measurements are centered at the mount point), but we don't have many of them right now. I could see in the future that we could have a bunch of front/back ratios, but we don't have that yet.


Yeah, even without updating too many numbers, just the ability to move the ski horizontally to view the ski profile when beside other similar skis would be cool.
Jan 17 2022 10:27AM
0 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
EightsailsYeah, even without updating too many numbers, just the ability to move the ski horizontally to view the ski profile when beside other similar skis would be cool.


We are working on it. It is easy to shift a ski on a graph, but a little bit more tricky to do the user interface right.

In the meantime, we also added the ski overall taper as a measured parameter (e.g., pintail vs symmetric tip/tail width). Some people seem to find that useful.
Jan 28 2022 7:10AM
1 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Small update. We changed how we calculate the camber of reverse camber skis. All reverse camber skis will now be at zero camber. That makes things more stable with flat camber skis (which were often classified as reverse camber ski due to the local curvature underfoot). Some flat cambered skis were listed with -6 mm of camber, which was not the case at all.
Feb 7 2022 10:54AM
1 0
profile picture
anders_a
Posts: 1680 - Karma: 5,603
you guys are awesome.
Feb 7 2022 11:39AM
3 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
anders_ayou guys are awesome.


Thanks, we really like to see that skiers are using this tool. Let us know of any feedback so that we can improve it.
Feb 9 2022 9:59PM
1 0
profile picture
butteredpretzel
Posts: 1485 - Karma: 866
In love with this tool - thank you and team so much for investing in this!

I work in data science / insights and have a few skiers on my team - we love this shit!!!!!!!
Feb 10 2022 12:26PM
3 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
butteredpretzelIn love with this tool - thank you and team so much for investing in this!

I work in data science / insights and have a few skiers on my team - we love this shit!!!!!!!


Feel free to share any idea you would like to see happen. We might have time to implement a few new things over the summer...
Feb 10 2022 9:20PM
2 0
profile picture
mrk127
Posts: 1803 - Karma: 16,312
aludeFeel free to share any idea you would like to see happen. We might have time to implement a few new things over the summer...


With the data you already have could you implement a way to show how the ski flexes at the beginning, compared to deep in the flex. Like to see if a ski flexes progressively or linear.
Feb 19 2022 2:59AM
1 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
mrk127With the data you already have could you implement a way to show how the ski flexes at the beginning, compared to deep in the flex. Like to see if a ski flexes progressively or linear.


Yes, we can do that. We have tools to do that, they are just not online yet.

What do you mean by flexing progressively or linear?
Feb 20 2022 8:23PM
0 0
profile picture
drifts
Posts: 591 - Karma: 4,340
aludeYes, we can do that. We have tools to do that, they are just not online yet.

What do you mean by flexing progressively or linear?


I think he means if the flex stays consistent throughout the whole range or if it flexes a lot at first then less further into it or some shit. like for spring rates in car suspension linear the rate is flat the whole way and a progressive spring has one rate then a different rate
Feb 21 2022 12:43AM
1 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
driftsI think he means if the flex stays consistent throughout the whole range or if it flexes a lot at first then less further into it or some shit. like for spring rates in car suspension linear the rate is flat the whole way and a progressive spring has one rate then a different rate


That is why I asked. I understand the analogy, but for a ski the spring rate will remain linear for fairly large deformations, specially if you calculate the deformation to simulate a 3 points bending test. On-snow it might get a bit different due to the snow deformation and the fact that different stiffness profiles will create different load distribution under the ski that compress the snow differently. We might be able to see that by looking at the pressure distribution under a deformed ski.

Maybe a better way to ask about linear/progressive is how do they feel different on-snow?
Feb 21 2022 7:52AM
2 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Hey everyone. Winter is coming and we are starting to add 2022-23 skis into the SoothSki database: https://soothski.com/compare. So far, we added 300 skis and should add 350 more within one week.

We will do a few more measuring sessions, so let us know of any special requests and we will see what we can do.
Oct 9 2022 12:24PM
10 0
profile picture
BingPow
Posts: 568 - Karma: 5,494
aludeHey everyone. Winter is coming and we are starting to add 2022-23 skis into the SoothSki database: https://soothski.com/compare. So far, we added 300 skis and should add 350 more within one week.

We will do a few more measuring sessions, so let us know of any special requests and we will see what we can do.


You are KILLING IT. I love to just scroll and try weird comparisons out, by far the best way to look for skis. Where are you getting all that data from. Do ski companies supply them or are you taking the measurements yourself?
Oct 11 2022 7:40AM
1 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
BingPowYou are KILLING IT. I love to just scroll and try weird comparisons out, by far the best way to look for skis. Where are you getting all that data from. Do ski companies supply them or are you taking the measurements yourself?


Thanks! We touched every single ski in the database to measure them.

We developed a super fast machine to measure the skis and some automated software to extract the data. We are lucky that most retailers are happy to host us so that we can access the ski to measure them. They seem to dig the data too!

We would love to have more Direct-to-Customer brands in our database, but we can't get them at retailers. Same for brands that are not represented at our local shops. If a company wants to ship us some skis, we would happily measure them free of charge and return them unharmed.
Oct 12 2022 8:45PM
4 0
profile picture
mrk127
Posts: 1803 - Karma: 16,312
alude is doing god's work here

Mods, get this man a orange name
@theabortionator @eheath @TRVP_ANGEL
Oct 13 2022 12:16AM
5 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Just added about 300 skis from 22-23... enjoy! Total count from 22-23 is now 576. More coming soon...
Oct 16 2022 5:09PM
7 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Just added about 350 skis from 22-23...

Total skis from 22-23: 912
Total # of skis: 3882
Oct 30 2022 4:28PM
3 0
profile picture
partyandBS
Posts: 4505 - Karma: 69,382
What happens to the skis after you test them? Are they all in a dumpster out back??
Oct 30 2022 11:54PM
0 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
partyandBSWhat happens to the skis after you test them? Are they all in a dumpster out back??


I keep them all for my personal quiver! haha. I wish.

We measure them in shops/warehouses mostly, so we just put them back on the rack! Otherwise we return them to the manufacturer.
Oct 31 2022 7:01AM
3 0
profile picture
nmwninjart
Posts: 2994 - Karma: 15,064
3882 skis measured! 😮
Oct 31 2022 8:16AM
3 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
So some skis were missing torsional stiffness values (GJ). I finally had the time to fix that, so you get full data for about 170 more skis... many Stoeckli, K2, Black Crows and Line.
Jan 2 2023 9:15PM
4 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Just added some skis from RMU. Enjoy comparing...
Jul 13 2023 11:03PM
5 0
profile picture
WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,405
Are you contracted with any manufacturers? It would be cool to see a complete list each year of new models to compare. The best we have right now is the subjective and highly condition dependent Blister Guide. Your list is big but seems to be piecemealed in what is being tested.

Imagine early year before models are released, all manufacturers send you a sample of their entire lineup. You run the tests and release it in a detailed report. This information could be used on their websites, merchant sites, and review blogs/magazines. Could even expand to boots to test stiffness across a universal standard. You'd be like the Consumer Reports of skiing.
Aug 7 2023 7:33PM
3 0
profile picture
TOAST.
Posts: 7481 - Karma: 36,054
runforlove2024Are you contracted with any manufacturers? It would be cool to see a complete list each year of new models to compare. The best we have right now is the subjective and highly condition dependent Blister Guide. Your list is big but seems to be piecemealed in what is being tested.

Imagine early year before models are released, all manufacturers send you a sample of their entire lineup. You run the tests and release it in a detailed report. This information could be used on their websites, merchant sites, and review blogs/magazines. Could even expand to boots to test stiffness across a universal standard. You'd be like the Consumer Reports of skiing.

But then you couldn't call every ski playful
Aug 7 2023 8:03PM
6 0
profile picture
WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,405
TOAST.But then you couldn't call every ski playful

Every marketing department loses their minds if this happens
Aug 8 2023 1:33AM
2 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
runforlove2024Are you contracted with any manufacturers? It would be cool to see a complete list each year of new models to compare. The best we have right now is the subjective and highly condition dependent Blister Guide. Your list is big but seems to be piecemealed in what is being tested.

Imagine early year before models are released, all manufacturers send you a sample of their entire lineup. You run the tests and release it in a detailed report. This information could be used on their websites, merchant sites, and review blogs/magazines. Could even expand to boots to test stiffness across a universal standard. You'd be like the Consumer Reports of skiing.


We are not quite there yet. A few direct-to-customer brands have started shipping us skis, like RMU, but most of our measurements are from retailers that let us in their shops in the fall. What we measure is what they have. Some skis are hard to find, like, for example, all the slalom racing skis out there. It is a very common request, but they are expensive, specialized, and most shops only carry one or two brands so it is hard to get them all. Same with any other kind of very specialized ski or skis that are not in shops, or not in our local shops (e.g., many small European brands).

We hope more manufacturers will send us their skis at some point. We measure everything for free. The biggest hurdle (I think) seems to be the shipping cost/complexity. Shipping a pair to a few review websites is less expensive than shipping us a good sample of their lineup, even if we return all the skis unharmed. The other thing is that most companies have been sold out quite early in the season in the last few years with COVID, so there was no real need to provide more info to customers. They just wanted a bit of exposure from blog/magazines. Anyways, skiers seem to enjoy comparing skis using validated measurements and our traffic is growing quite fast. We are getting harder to ignore. If you like that info and want more, the best thing you can do to help us is ask companies for their specs and refer them to us. That really has a big impact!

A side note is that for the comparator to be really useful in helping you choose the perfect ski, it is important that we measure most lengths available. Of course, we can measure the most common lengths and call it good, but it is important to know that skis change when they are scaled up/down. Scaling skis up/down is not performed uniformly across the industry. Different lengths from different manufacturers will feel different on snow. What really differentiates us from most is that we can easily measure 10x more skis than anyone can review. We measured about 1000 skis/year for the last 3 years (about 300 models in 3-4 lengths) and could easily do more with better access to skis. As a comparison, Blister has one of the best selections out there and they add only about 100 new skis per year to their guide (I say "only", but I love what they do... I just don't see how they could do more or do it faster). Blister also typically likes long skis so that doesn't fit everyone. However, they have a particularly cool selection of smaller brands. Definitely jealous of that!
Aug 14 2023 9:37PM
3 0
profile picture
WoFIowz
Posts: 9788 - Karma: 72,405
Wow thanks for replying in so much detail. Sounds like you have a lot of experience under your belt. I wonder if all it would take is a big brand to buy in and influence the others. Either way keep it up. This is good shit.
aludeWe are not quite there yet. A few direct-to-customer brands have started shipping us skis, like RMU, but most of our measurements are from retailers that let us in their shops in the fall. What we measure is what they have. Some skis are hard to find, like, for example, all the slalom racing skis out there. It is a very common request, but they are expensive, specialized, and most shops only carry one or two brands so it is hard to get them all. Same with any other kind of very specialized ski or skis that are not in shops, or not in our local shops (e.g., many small European brands).

We hope more manufacturers will send us their skis at some point. We measure everything for free. The biggest hurdle (I think) seems to be the shipping cost/complexity. Shipping a pair to a few review websites is less expensive than shipping us a good sample of their lineup, even if we return all the skis unharmed. The other thing is that most companies have been sold out quite early in the season in the last few years with COVID, so there was no real need to provide more info to customers. They just wanted a bit of exposure from blog/magazines. Anyways, skiers seem to enjoy comparing skis using validated measurements and our traffic is growing quite fast. We are getting harder to ignore. If you like that info and want more, the best thing you can do to help us is ask companies for their specs and refer them to us. That really has a big impact!

A side note is that for the comparator to be really useful in helping you choose the perfect ski, it is important that we measure most lengths available. Of course, we can measure the most common lengths and call it good, but it is important to know that skis change when they are scaled up/down. Scaling skis up/down is not performed uniformly across the industry. Different lengths from different manufacturers will feel different on snow. What really differentiates us from most is that we can easily measure 10x more skis than anyone can review. We measured about 1000 skis/year for the last 3 years (about 300 models in 3-4 lengths) and could easily do more with better access to skis. As a comparison, Blister has one of the best selections out there and they add only about 100 new skis per year to their guide (I say "only", but I love what they do... I just don't see how they could do more or do it faster). Blister also typically likes long skis so that doesn't fit everyone. However, they have a particularly cool selection of smaller brands. Definitely jealous of that!
Aug 15 2023 12:17AM
3 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
I just added about 250 skis in the comparator, so we now have 4150 total. Enjoy!

FYI, we just measured about 800 skis at SkiEssentials last weekend, so there are about 550 more skis coming very soon. These guys are great, encourage them if you can.
Nov 20 2023 7:04PM
11 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
4500 ski total
615 from '23-24
Nov 23 2023 6:40PM
9 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
A few additions, mostly long skis and skis that Scott Sports sent us...

Number of '23-24 skis: 714
Total number of skis: 4601
Dec 3 2023 11:55PM
4 0
profile picture
PartyBullshiit
Posts: 3804 - Karma: 17,242
aludeA few additions, mostly long skis and skis that Scott Sports sent us...

Number of '23-24 skis: 714
Total number of skis: 4601

Great work. Thanks for sharing it all with us. Hopefully you’ll be able to get your hands on some more recent moment skis. Not sure who the dealers are up by you that stock them.
Dec 4 2023 12:18AM
3 0
profile picture
mrk127
Posts: 1803 - Karma: 16,312
just checked out the website for the first time in a year or so. Forgot how impressive this data base is. nice work
Dec 6 2023 2:32AM
5 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
mrk127just checked out the website for the first time in a year or so. Forgot how impressive this data base is. nice work


Thanks! We always appreciate comments like that!

I just added a few more skis, mostly some with convex tip and/or tail, so a bunch of Atomic, Armada and Line (including some from '22-23).

Number of '23-24 skis: 803
Total number of skis: 4723
Dec 16 2023 7:50PM
3 0
profile picture
powpatrol
Posts: 1682 - Karma: 10,914
aludeThanks! We always appreciate comments like that!

I just added a few more skis, mostly some with convex tip and/or tail, so a bunch of Atomic, Armada and Line (including some from '22-23).

Number of '23-24 skis: 803
Total number of skis: 4723


gods work
Dec 16 2023 7:57PM
3 0
profile picture
mrk127
Posts: 1803 - Karma: 16,312
@TRVP_ANGEL @eheath Alude needs an orange name
Dec 19 2023 1:10AM
4 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
I doubt that you guys are spending a lot of time on these skis, but, FWIW, we added a few skis from Stoeckli to the comparator... SC, SL, SL FIS, GS, GS FIS, WRT, WRT Pro, ...
Feb 4 2024 7:45PM
4 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Adding 2024-25 skis right now. More than 200 new skis with more to come within 1-2 weeks. 4951 skis total!

Enjoy!
Nov 10 2024 7:21PM
2 0
profile picture
powpatrol
Posts: 1682 - Karma: 10,914
aludeAdding 2024-25 skis right now. More than 200 new skis with more to come within 1-2 weeks. 4951 skis total!

Enjoy!


gods work
Nov 11 2024 3:14AM
2 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Now at 410 skis from 2024-25. Total of 5100+ skis...

Also corrected a little bug that made skis from 2023-24 look a bit longer on the graphs.
Nov 23 2024 11:40AM
1 0
profile picture
Non_State_Actor
Posts: 4809 - Karma: 17,046
aludeNow at 410 skis from 2024-25. Total of 5100+ skis...

Also corrected a little bug that made skis from 2023-24 look a bit longer on the graphs.

Amazing!

Any idea how many skis are on the market in any given year?
Nov 23 2024 12:07PM
0 0
profile picture
alude
Posts: 69 - Karma: 611
Non_State_ActorAmazing!

Any idea how many skis are on the market in any given year?


Most large retailers have 200-300 models in 4-5 lengths, so that is 800 to 1500 skis.

But most of these large retailers don't sell many of the smaller brands that have very cool skis. Many of them are direct-to-consumers. They can send us their skis to be measured. We do it for free and return the skis unharmed.
Nov 23 2024 12:14PM
1 0
All times are Eastern (-5)