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Surviving an avalanche?

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.Roockley.
Posts: 3864 - Karma: 4,078
with all the devastating news recently it got me thinking

what is the recommended way to try and survive a slide? i know knowledge of snow pack, conditions and correct gear can help but if something did go wrong what are you mean to whilst you are in the avalanche and moving?

ditch skis or keep skis? swim or curl up? cover face for an air pocket?



Feb 19 2012 8:11PM
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Goku
Posts: 8119 - Karma: 4,223
relevant to my interests
Feb 19 2012 8:18PM
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MrChevyCelebrity
Posts: 509 - Karma: 406
One thing that should be on your mind if you are caught in a slide with no chance to ski out is to try to stick your arm and pole up toward the sky as high as you can. If you aren't buried really deep, hopefully a piece would be sticking out and your friends could get to you faster.
Feb 19 2012 8:23PM
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Squaw6
Posts: 469 - Karma: 50
If you can afford it, buy an airbag backpack.
Feb 19 2012 8:24PM
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NW_Rider
Posts: 2580 - Karma: 314
Take an avy course!
Feb 19 2012 8:30PM
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scottcha
Posts: 63 - Karma: 32
The techniques others posted are the standard stuff they would teach you in an Avy 1 class.

Don't let those techniques allow you to drop the bar when it comes to judging the slope and making a safe call whether to ski or now. I'm sure the three folks at Stevens all knew every one of those. The Avy Airbag helped in this situation but one guy last week at Telluride died while being swept through trees and he had an Avy Airbag.

Here is a good vid about the power of an avy and how helpless you can be: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ono1Hr5tos&feature=relmfu

Stay safe out there. This season has been deadly. RIP to all the folks this season.
Feb 19 2012 8:31PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
Don't know where to find the stat, but some friends who have higher avy certs told me that people who die from suffocating do so because their lungs are under the pressure of the snow more so than snow blocking the air from their mouth. Now, I've been told that if you are in a full burial situation at the last minute try to create a air pocket around your mouth (and stick an arm up to try and get something above the surface - that is - if you know which way is up). So the stat may be a bit skewed due to the fact that we have been trained to create an air pocket for the mouth and ignoring the chest... Maybe relieving pressure from the chest instead of clearing a spot for your mouth will buy you a few more minutes in some situations?

Thought for discussion.
Feb 19 2012 8:32PM
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Goku
Posts: 8119 - Karma: 4,223
http://www.backcountryaccess.com/education-research/learn-about-av-safety/
Feb 19 2012 8:32PM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
sorry for the dub post, but I worded that in a way that may be misinterpreted. don't read that as "everyone who does from suffocation is due to the pressure on the chest"... it's just coming up more commonly in the last few years...
Feb 19 2012 8:36PM
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DubV134
Posts: 1541 - Karma: 690
i did a lot of reading and learning on my own before i got out to CO but nothing beats hands on learning from an instructor.... i think whether swimming helps or not is debatable. if you dont have an avalung or airbag its more important to get one arm crossed over your face to form an air pocket in your elbow and punch your other arm towards the sky before the slide stops
Feb 19 2012 8:39PM
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skiP.E.I.
Posts: 7821 - Karma: 21,848
If you are caught in a slide you need to "swim" trying to keep your head and arms above the snow. As soon as the slide stops, push and hollow out as much snow from around your face as you can, before the snow hardens, which it will do in seconds. If you are buried, the bigger the air pocket you can make around your face, the longer you will have air for. Also sticking an arm/pole skyward is a good idea as it could signal your location to your friends.
Feb 19 2012 10:47PM
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VD.
Posts: 4054 - Karma: 4,565
When you look at a line you should allways plan you safety islands, in an avalanche snow behaeves like water look at you line and think which course the avalanche would take and plan you safet islands. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that skis would pull you down so if you can ditch them, an ABS airbag or snowpulse would be good. The best strategy is just not to get caught in one, if it's not good to go don't go there, will always be more pow, there will always be more lines
Feb 19 2012 11:10PM
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BlakeG
Posts: 1450 - Karma: 1,030
once your buried dig a little hole around your face whatever way you can then spit, and you will se which way the spit falls youll know which way is up and down so you dont end up digging urself deeper
Feb 19 2012 11:28PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Avoid slackcountry and backcountry. Sometimes no matter what you do or how safe the snowpack in the zone looks, shit slides.
Feb 19 2012 11:33PM
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SKI.ING
Posts: 2695 - Karma: 2,535
Sadly I feel like this sums it up.
Feb 19 2012 11:47PM
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kstanz
Posts: 3058 - Karma: 477
I just finished my level 1 AST course and I would defiantly recommend to anyone that is EVER even close to avalanche terrain/ ski's in it take at least this course.

 Your chances of surviving are sooo low if you and the people your skiing with don't have the basic equipment and know how to use it. I especially don't think this basic but... still complicated knowledge can be learned through a few simple sentences on a website. Go out and take the time to get educated about it because avy's can come from the least expected places and are not something to be messed with. It's hard to describe, but I feel like I was quite naieve about it before this course.

Obviously you can have the simple tips like trying to "swim" to stay above the avy, but that won't get you very far if you are alone or you and the people around you aren't prepared.
Feb 20 2012 12:00AM
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little_boo
Posts: 1303 - Karma: 231
Get educated before you travel in the bc. Make sure you have the right equipment for what you plan to do, but don't let that get to your head and make you believe that you'll be okay no matter what, just cause you have the avalung or beacon, etc. I cannot stress this enough, I can't stand people who think that just because they have the most recent backcountry gear, they're safe from anything.

Always look for an escape in the terrain you do find yourself in. If you're in trees, cliffs, etc- that's something to really consider.
If you do end up in moving snow, and you are able to ski out, obviously that's your best bet. Otherwise, you swim for dear life, and hope that it does good for you.
Feb 20 2012 12:04AM
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ChasingFlakes
Posts: 822 - Karma: 1,544
prevention obviously but to the thread question. Luck. Pray you're not pushed over cliff, slammed into a tree, bounce off rocks, fall into a crevass or don't for get when its all said in done if all that other shit doesn't get you . Pray you're on top other wise i hope your friends are prepared and know what to do.

If you don't know , don't go. I see people going out often with no gear and worse no fucking clue .
Feb 20 2012 1:28AM
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no_steeze
Posts: 23992 - Karma: 4,272
as soon as you see the snow breaking around you try and ski at a 45 degree angle towards the flanks of the slide. if you try to traverse too flat you won't get enough speed to get out of the slide in time, and vice versa, if you head straight down the hill you will definitely not be able to outrun the avalanche

never ski with your poles strapped on. as soon as you start to go down, throw your poles away

keep your backpack ON. it will not drag you down, instead it both protects your spine but it also gives your searchers a couple feet more surface area to find you with probe strikes

if you have an abs or avalung, obviously use those as quickly as possible. your beacon should be close to your skin and not in a jacket pocket that can get ripped off. avalanches can take off your boots even, so keep your beacon close

then they say to try and swim. whatever that means...
Feb 20 2012 2:11AM
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ChasingFlakes
Posts: 822 - Karma: 1,544
i think people under appreciate how helpless you are and how much force is involved.
Feb 20 2012 3:34AM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
that's why I always look at this type of conversation as all theory. If I ever find myself in a serious situation in an avalanche, we'll see what I actually do in the thick of it. It all happens really fast, like a car accident - not a lot of time for thinking, more just reacting.
Feb 20 2012 9:23PM
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Z-Juice
Posts: 3151 - Karma: 1,504
Seriously. It is an extremely wise investment of time and money if you're thinking about heading to the BC
Feb 20 2012 9:31PM
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kvan
Posts: 3085 - Karma: 1,225
This never hurts!
Feb 20 2012 10:07PM
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bardissono
Posts: 443 - Karma: 213
Just take an avy course, you can consult NS as much as you want but if you really want to be safe out there go and learn what to do from a real certified teacher.
Feb 20 2012 10:28PM
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d-rok
Posts: 594 - Karma: 113
I would take an avy course but maybe not AST level1, try jumping to level 2, the reason is the level1 course they teach you real basic stuff, i had allready been in  the backcountry a bit and felt like everything they teach you is pretty much common sense, so if you have a bit of backcountry experience definetly take level 2, if not well take level 1
and i think once you are caught in an avalanche i think the air bag is pretty much your best chance of survival
Feb 20 2012 10:36PM
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.jon
Posts: 2121 - Karma: 345
hit the nail on the head. ski diagonally or up onto a spine/ridge if possible. if you're at the very top of the slide, try to grab onto a tree or rock. if that all fails, "swimming" and creating an air pocket are recommended.

the question about ditching skis is interesting... and i don't have a definitive answer. i know that they can drag you down in a slide, but by ditching them early you're also giving up on any hope of skiing out of the bulk of the slide. anybody have more info on that?
Feb 20 2012 11:28PM
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no_steeze
Posts: 23992 - Karma: 4,272
no, definitely take level 1. they won't let you in a level 2 course without having taken a level 1 before, and being in the backcountry a lot does not equal the amount of knowledge you receive in a level 1 course. sure a lot of it is common sense but there's also a lot about trip planning and observation and it covers tons of steps that the average backcountry goer would normally neglect to follow. level 2 is more of a specific snow science course on the formation of layers and snow stability whereas level 1 is an intro to traveling safely in the backcountry

being safe in the backcountry is something that takes a lifetime to achieve and it takes years and years of employing the basic things you learn in avy courses, but just because you're certified in l1 and l2 doesn't mean you're ready to tackle the mountains, they're intros to get your brain to start thinking about how to be safer in the backcountry for years

i'm a fan of the airbags but i'm really against all the press that the bca float has gotten from these articles about the stevens slide. my mom and uncle both contacted me today to tell me to get this float pack since "from the article in the times it is almost guaranteed survival of a slide." i think it's really dangerous for the news to be boasting about how the bca pack saved that woman's life. sure it did, but that was an account that didn't involve any terrain traps, and people who don't know any better will assume that they can take more risks because of what they read in the paper. i spoke to my mom about it for a while today and she said comparing the article with what i told her about the bca packs there was a big knowledge gap in the article and that it gave a false sense of safety.

airbags are great for keeping you on top, and i'm sure most people who know their shit understand that they aren't magic life saving devices, but i worry about the stupider less educated people thinking that they're portable helicopters to lift you out of a slide. i heard some gaper in truckee today talking about how he wanted a float pack after he was renting touring gear for the first time and going out unguided
Feb 21 2012 1:49AM
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thefilmerguy
Posts: 2847 - Karma: 55
basic avy information and READING THE LOCAL AVY REPORTS! i cannot stress this enough. read the reports. do what they say. dont go where they say not to. if the danger is moderate with pockets of considerable on NW through SE slopes above treeline, then jesus stay away from NE treeline. 

think about it like this... if you were told that there was a moderate chance of getting punched in the face tonight with a considerable chance of it happening at a bar, would you go into a bar?
Feb 21 2012 2:06AM
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no_steeze
Posts: 23992 - Karma: 4,272
anyone who goes into the backcountry without reading the bulletin should be hanged. even if it's been low for days and there's no new snow and the weather is the same, shit still moves around
Feb 21 2012 2:12AM
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martinleon
Posts: 153 - Karma: 102
go and buy books, they are really cheap, i don't know why, but i got my second one today and just started reading...take avy courses, read the bulletin of your area, most of the people who cause avys didnt' read the bulletin...
Feb 21 2012 2:15AM
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ShredMasterPlus
Posts: 1159 - Karma: 807
So true, I havnt even gone out bc yet waiting to take my avy course, but to keep myself in the loop I always read the reports every night at 5pm when there issued, and with a weak layer and like barely any new snow like 3 cms a day for a week its already gone up to considerable,  and moderate at treeline overnight and getting worse. Super sketchy shit it was low for like 2 weeks straight to so bummed that I wasnt ready when it was :(. Sound like you know your stuff though gator appreciate all the info
Feb 21 2012 2:20AM
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martinleon
Posts: 153 - Karma: 102
sorry for double..but the thing is not to know how to survive, is about to "how i'm safe and not causing avys"..stay safe out there !
Feb 21 2012 2:22AM
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Drail
Posts: 14012 - Karma: 10,010
AST 1/2 are Canadian certs. Avy 1 and 2 are the extensive courses needed to work in the industry, AST 1 and 2 are recreational courses. 1 introductory, 2 more involved.

All I really learned (that I didn't know before) from my AST 1 course was the temperature gradient... too bad I never go out with thermometers.
Feb 21 2012 2:54AM
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SFBv420.0
Posts: 2539 - Karma: 3,124
http://www.powdertothepeople.org/docs/EscapeCapture.pdf
from this thread
Lot of good info over there in the slide zone by people who actually know wtf they're talkin about
never took avvy 1 took avvy 2 a few seasons ago after 7 seasons of touring and a short stint on patrol.
takin a semester long snow science class through the u of u 50x the knowledge for the same $$$ no cert though
IMO the high price of avvy certs is a scam, but there are not a lot of other options if you want/need that cert.
double edged sword harder to learn when the dangers low.
best time to learn is when the dangers high, but mistakes may hold higher consequences.
hard to know if you don't go readin reports only goes so far.
no one teaches you ski cuts in any class.


Feb 21 2012 10:27AM
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mountainviper
Posts: 1931 - Karma: -3
Yeah dude. Some real good info in here. I think the best advice I could add would be to just not go unless your absolutely positive the risk is minimal. I had two very close calls last week. One where the opposite face we were on slid. Big slide too. The sound was super scary. It was like an earthquake and I never want to be that close to that again. Also the day before we were gonna take the sleds out and do some laps on a booter. My bud didn't feel comfortable with the report and talked us out of it. Yeah, that slid on its own that afternoon. Be careful. It's just not worth it this season.
Feb 21 2012 10:55AM
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xoxxooxo
Posts: 462 - Karma: 31
I think something being glossed over here is your bodies natural ability to perform at an incomprehensible level when in an avalanche. Once you start seeing the snow moving your adrenaline spikes, once you recognize that you are in an avalanche no amount of Av courses can prepared you for how you body acts. Your decision making quickens as does the physical reactions of your body, I found myself skiing faster and more precisely than I ever had before whilst trying to stay infront of an Av in BC. It caught me and I went down but I was able to stay ontop through methods that i didn't even know I had in my locker. I guess what I am trying to say is that avalanches are scary and preparing for them is important (av bags, RECCO patches, trackers, snow assessment) but when it comes down to being in one you can take solace in the fact that your body is an incredible tool. I doubt you have experienced what you body is truly capable of unless you have been in a situation such as an avalanche, not suggesting you go and seek out avalanches.

My main point that in an Avalanche your body and its current physical condition matters. One of the best way to prepare for one is to keep yourself in good physical shape at all points in time.
Feb 21 2012 11:34AM
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Bmills
Posts: 13 - Karma: 10
StartFragment

One point I would add on the subject of survival is theimportance of first aid training. Obviously good avalanche education/awarenessand smart terrain choices are more important, but if it does go wrong and yourpartner is caught in a slide the potential need for resuscitation and/or traumatreatment is super high. This is going to be true even if they aren’t buried oryou dig them out real quickly. I’d say a CPR cert should be considered at least,although at Wilderness First Aid or First Responder course would be better.Side bonus is it sounds cool as fuck to tell chicks at the bar that you are a WildernessFirst Responder, or maybe I just think it does.

EndFragment
Feb 21 2012 12:40PM
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