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Please enlighten me. Which other majorly influential groups (other than the KKK) are against gay marriage? Sure there may be some small groups of atheists that are against gay marriage, but there are such things as exceptions.
As long as churches are not taxed, they (including their morals) should not have anything to do with politics. Such morals interfere with the progress of the state to enact laws that are equal to all groups.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"
- The Declaration of Independence
Now how can you say that these Christian "morals" are not infringing upon the Government? It is obvious to me at least that legislation against gay marriage is fueled by religious beliefs. Our country is not a theocracy, and therefore laws enacted should not be influenced by religious beliefs.
“pascal's
wager only works if there are two sets of beliefs. one religion's god
versus no god. but there are many religions and many options. the
wager is too simple and really doesn't make sense in light of
that. “
you started out alright
“I also don't
think we get to blame god for the awful things done in god's name. I
think we're just gonna walk all over each other for whatever reasons
are available. if we can say god wants us to take over more
territory, or to force native people off their land, it doesn't make
it true. assume for a moment that god exists. knowing that a person
cannot be good without free will (the option to do bad), then we know
that god must allow bad things to be done, which also means that bad
things must be able to affect good people. blow that up to a world
scale and unfortunately you get things like the crusades and the
holocaust. but without free will and the ability to do bad things,
"good" is a meaningless term. (by analogy, imagine i have a
girlfriend, but she only loves me because i slipped her some kind of
love potion that gives her no choice in the matter. does that really
mean anything to me? is that deeply fulfilling or meaningful in any
way? love and coercion can't coexist in my world) “
Religious
texts can be blamed for the crimes people commit. But you don't seem
to be into those. I'm going to assume you believe your god created
the universe. If so, then he absolutely can be held responsible for
everything that happens as it would not be possible had he not
created everything. If you don't believe he was responsible for
creation then let me know what you think he has done and i'll do my
best to dismantle that too.
“so to get back to
religion, the fact that religion did some terrible things in god's
name does not refute god, it just demonstrates the fallibility of
human endeavors. it just goes to show you that if we're truly free,
we're able to do ghastly things in god's name, and he won't do
anything about it. he can't. if he did, we wouldn't actually be free,
and the whole thing would fall apart. again, that's assuming god's
existence, but hopefully that gives you some insight into why it's
stupid to blame god for religion's fuckups. a bunch of humans leading
humans can turn evil, even with the best intentions. we're fallible
beings. “
Aside from your god being responsible for
everything he created, i'll agree with you that terrible things done
in his name don't refute his existence. Nobody claims that. What they
do claim is that religious belief can be held responsible for those
peoples' actions. I also agree that we would not be free if evil acts
could not be committed. However, it's impossible to deny that
religious belief doesn't make one more prone to irrational behavior.
Does evil have to exist for free will to also exist? Yes. Need it be
promoted by religion? Hell fucking no. You need to realize that if
you claim your god is responsible for bringing everything into
existence, he is responsible for it. If you believe he directly
inspired religion by taking a hands-on approach (prophets, Jesus,
etc.) then he only had more blood on his hands.
“also, i
don't know what you mean by "groundless". If you want to
say "not grounded in sensory experience," then yeah, you're
right. but that's a little too basic for me. the way i see it, we
live in a world where there is evidence all around us of things
outside our five senses. Radio waves, magnetism, etc., which is
enough to demonstrate to me that I can't trust my senses alone. We
know this is true because of the use of measuring devices that
respond to forces we can't see. While we don't have any instruments
that measure anything spiritual yet, I see the facts I just mentioned
as enough to at least do away with the argument that everything
"real" in this world is immediately apparent to the
senses. “
The stupidity in this is astounding. Some
amateur, wanna-be philosopher “if I close my eyes, the world does
not exist” bullshit. This is a complete non-argument. “I don't
see it, therefore it could be there”, giving your god as much
credibility as a sparkly pink unicorn (which would actually be more
likely than an omnipotent, omniscient being).
“I studied
philosophy for four years. for a while, I was obsessed with proving
that God didn't exist, that the world was strictly material. I read
anything I could get my hands on, and I believed, and would get
pretty offensive on this point, that nothing that could not be
directly observed with the senses or logically proven wasn't worth
talking about. I thought that reason was the only tool I needed. I
blamed religion for the suffering in the world without taking into
account the comfort many people found in the community and in their
spiritual beliefs. i blasted people for their own religious
convictions, thinking blind faith was stupid. i still think blind
faith is stupid, but i don't think nearly as much faith is as blind
as i once did. “
Already explained the current
philosophy regarding the existence of a god. See my other posts to
learn more about the evils of religion. Faith is always blind. If
there was evidence it wouldn't be faith.
“i ended up at the
conclusion that I don't know everything, that I can't use reason to
justify every one of my beliefs. some of them, simple as they may be,
are based outside of reason. love, for example. i can't measure it, i
can't rationally explain why i love certain people in my life, but
i'm as convinced of that as i am of the solidity of the desk i'm
writing this on. i realized i already held some non-rational beliefs,
and for me they made life worth living. if our greater purpose is
really just to eat, shit, fuck, and die, i'd rather not be a human
being at all. that's all reason could really get me to and I wasn't
happy with it. the fact that i even wanted more was a sign that i
couldn't stop at reason. i needed more. “
I didn't
think i'd need to explain how emotions work to someone out of middle
school. Love and all other emotions are products of chemical and
electrical processes in the brain brought on by certain stimuli. I
could explain why you love certain people if you want to tell me your
history with them. It's often not hard at all if you have a basic
understanding of psychology. I'm glad you feel it's as real as your
desk. It is and it's just as measurable. If you already held
irrational beliefs it's not surprising you welcomed one more. Do
humans have some cosmic purpose? No. Our purpose was determined by
our evolution. While it can vary from person to person in specifics,
the purpose of human lives is to achieve happiness.
“ I
had a series of life experiences that prompted me to start asking
harder questions of my own spiritual convictions, about how sure i
was that there was no god in the traditional sense, and i started to
come to believe that something bigger than me was out there, above
and beyond my everyday experience. i wasn't sure it was a thinking
thing at all, perhaps just a force of some kind, but i began to see
that there's something beyond experience that connects all of us.
gradually i started to talk to it. not because i thought it would
listen, that it would do any good at all, but simply because i wanted
to acknowledge its existence. so i began to say "thank you"
every night before bed, irrational as it sounds. gradually that
changed to "thank you, i want to get to know you better"
and ultimately to "thank you, i want to see the world from your
point of view". This might not make a ton of sense, but the main
idea i want to get across is that i didn't jump on the "god is a
big bearded man in the sky judging all we do" bandwagon right
away, i just acknowledged that there's more to the world and our
connections than meets the eye. i took great comfort in that fact. i
didn't suddenly think that there was an unseen man who wanted me to
kill in his name, i just saw that if we're all connected, the deeper
the connection runs, the better i should treat the people around me
and the world i live in. the more thought i gave to that idea, the
happier i was, and the easier it was to do hard things like forgive
people who had harmed me, and ask forgiveness from people i had
harmed. “
It's not uncommon for emotional trauma to
lead to that kind of thought. The sense of there being “something”
out there is another well-known psychological effect that can be attributed
to evolutionary adaptations. We ARE all connected. We inhabit the
same universe in the same reality. No supernatural forces needed.
That's great that you started trying to treat people better and
forgive those who had wronged you. I try to live like that every day
and I don't attribute it to a god.
“my belief in god came
out of experimentation. i tried a life rooted in absolutely nothing
but myself, and it sucked. i did some really shitty things and wasn't
"living" in the conventional sense for a long time. It
wasn't out of fear of death that i came to that conclusion, it was
out of fear of myself, of living in a shitty, selfish pit until my
blood stopped pumping and this endless chain of thoughts stopped
rattling away in my brain. i thought there was a better way to live,
to see the world, and to treat the people in it, and i was determined
to find it. i believed that there was something more to this world
and the lives we lead, and i used things like prayer and meditation
to seek (and find) answers to my deeper questions. if you want to do
that without using the g word, you can. i think you'll end up there
anyway, if you're really open and honest about the endeavor though.
that's pretty much how it happened to me.”
Life without a
god is not an empty life. You were an empty person. The world
however, is not empty. Honestly, it sounds like you were just a
shitty person living an unfulfilling life. But instead of accepting
that the fault was yours, you decided to offload that guilt onto a
delusion so that you could make the changes you needed to make
without taking any blame. I'm sorry it took backwards somersaults
through logic to help you get over yourself, but I really am happy
you were able to change. Now if only you could combine your new
morals with your old rationality.
Here's my thought for the day -
Eternity... ok - that's what all christians are after right - to live forever, eternity in heavan.
My thought on that is that there is no way I'd like to live for eternity... I am PERFECTLY comfortable with the knowledge that I have a finite time on this planet, and when my time is up, i die... that's it, eyes close, heart stops, gone... cease to exist - bye bye everyone, it's been a blast. Eternity would get kinda boring after what, 300-500-1000 yrs being the same person... the suicide rate in "eternity life" must be fucking high... reincarnitation however, that sounds kinda cool to me... another shot, being someone completley different with different talents, opportunities or even challenges.... good or bad. Anyway....
Because I am on a level with that, and ACCEPT it wholly - I am way more free then anyone who believes in a god or a religion, or any greater purpose... why does there need to be one? can someone answer that? It makes me try and make the most of everyday... not because im being judged, but because i only have a finite amount of time, and I wanna have as much fun and do as much cool stuff as possible - as well as try not to be a total C U Next Tuesday.... :-)
You stand on a spider and it ceases to exist... why are we any different?
“brilliant”
thank
you
“ "alright," which is still not a
word”
picker of nits
You say god created a
faulty universe because bad things happen, but once again, bad things
are necessary for free will. If you try to create a perfectly
mechanistic, rational world, you don't get to assign meaning. If you
want to test that, make me an argument (…)
Admittedly,
philosophy isn't my strong suit. Though I stand by my belief that if
a god created everything in existence he can and must be held
responsible for what occurs in his creation.
“”Nobody
claims that." Sure they do. All the time. And you keep
saying god is responsible for everything he created without
explaining what you mean by that. responsible in the sense one is
responsible in a court of law? responsible in a causal sense? and
what conclusion are you trying to make here? “
You sure
did get all the nits out. “nobody claims that” should have read
“only an idiot would claim that” or something along those lines.
Yes in that he was the cause. Conclusion= if a god caused it, he is
responsible for whatever happened in his creation.
"I
also agree that we would not be free if evil acts could not be
committed. However, it's impossible to deny that religious belief
doesn't make one more prone to irrational behavior." “Once
again, irrational behavior means...? You have to add a value
judgment, or at least show why irrational behavior is
undesirable.”
To give an example of irrational behavior,
i'll quote you: “"Bombing abortion clinics (...) for what are
thought to be pious reasons. “ I won't insult your
intelligence by explaining how that kind of behavior is
undesirable.”
“Last year I volunteered as a crisis
counselor at a homeless youth shelter. At the time I was agnostic at
best, if that's relevant to you. Was that behavior rationally
motivated? Not really. I just think we should take care of each
other, i can give you a rational proof if you like, but ultimately
it's going to be built on that, and I can't prove to you why we ought
to care about some fucked up kids living on the streets to begin
with. If you took a strictly darwinist point of view, it doesn't aid
my own survival in any way, nor the survival of my genes.”
Volunteer work is absolutely rationally motivated. I'm going
to make an assumption here which l hesitate to do after some of the
assumptions I made in my last post, but I would assume that you felt
like what you were doing added worth to your life. There is rational
motivation right there. I''m not accusing you of being an empty
worthless person again, dont worry. The want of happiness,
self-worth, and satisfaction in life are most definitely products of
evolution. Maybe you felt you yourself were getting nothing out of
it. Even so, I wouldnt even call it an assumption to say you
thought/hoped you were helping the kids. Survival of the individual
is not the only behavior brought about by evolution. Survival of the
species is also ingrained in us. There was nothing irrational about
what you did. You were adding value to your life and furthering the
survival of our species.
“So again, you're making the
assumption that anything that's irrational is bad. Now if you said
religious belief makes people more prone to violence, or hatred, we'd
at least be speaking in terms of value and be able to get somewhere.
“
and you made the assumption that what you did was
irrational. Irrational beliefs can lead to irrational actions,
whether good or bad. But nobody has blown up an abortion clinic based
on rational beliefs. Your second sentence there is also true.
“So
religion promotes evil? You're going to need to back these claims up,
we're obviously operating on two different sets of assumptions. Also,
we're back to talking about religion, and my post was almost
exclusively about god. In fact, you're bashing religion in response
to my paragraph about how god and religion should be separately
considered and that god cannot be held responsible for individual
actions that claim to ascribe to a certain religion. “
Are
Fred Phelps' beliefs based on scripture? Yes. Religion does promote
evil. The bible is full of it. We're barely more than 50 years past a
time when homosexuality was considered a crime punishable by
imprisonment and chemical castration in Western European countries.
We're not talking about eastern Turkey. Again, that was irrational,
religious based belief (homosexuality is evil) that led to real world
evils. A belief in god leads to religion leads to evil. There's the
connection I was trying to make. I actually agree with you though. I
don't believe a god is responsible. I don't believe one exists.
“get clear on what we mean by the word "love," since you
seem to consider it based solely in chemical reactions in the brain.
I'm talking about love as the source of irrational action, like
forgiving someone who harmed me, even when I know they may do it
again. I can't rationally explain to you why I value things that
aren't rational. I can break skiing down into endorphins and
adrenaline, but that doesn't fully capture what I want you to know
about my experience. Maybe you and I just differ in that respect.
Maybe that's all you want. “
Maybe I can exchange some
evolutionary biology and psychology books for some of
your philosophy books? This isn't meant as an insult, but I think if
you did learn a bit more about how the brain works and how humans
think (from an evolutionary perspective) you would see that what you
think is irrational is not at all.
You see how you
just attached value to "happiness" without a rational
basis? It's no different. Let's get clear on what you mean by
happiness in that sentence. Fulfillment in a teleological sense? Or
just food in my belly and a warm place to fall asleep at night? With
all your indignation about religion, it's starting to become clear
that you have an idea of what is good and bad in this world, but I'm
not sure where your moral system comes from. You obviously have
strong convictions that humanity would be better off without religion
or belief in god, but if human life originated out of nothing, means
nothing, and proceeds nowhere, i really don't see why you're
bothering to make that claim in the first place.
Food
and shelter for starters, but we're much more complex creatures than
that. It takes those basic needs combined with what an individual
determines for themselves. Morality is purely a product of our
evolution. As all humans are part of this same evolutionary route, it
can be argued that we share certain innate morals. An easy example
would be murder being an evil. Human life did not originate out of
nothing. I would hope you understand evolution so im going to assume
by that you meant that at one point the universe didn't exist and,
well, that's arguable. No one can say for certain that there hasn't
always been a universe/multiverse/etc. If you're looking for a
purpose on a grand, cosmic, supernatural scale, I can't help you
there. It's fun to think about those kinds of things but it's pretty
irrelevant in a human life. I find beauty and meaning in life in the
universe as a purely natural occurrence.
In the end what this comes down to is science(me) vs. philosophy(you). I will believe there is no god or supernatural Buddhist force until there is reason from empirical evidence to believe in one. For you, the fact that there could be a supernatural entity/force is enough. I hope this post came across as more civil.
Holy shitstorm.
Firstly, I'm Agnostic.
Does it really have to be this much of an argument?
I love the sense of cummunity that many religions create, but I personally despise organised religions in the political sense. In the past millions of people have died in religious controuversy, and that's what I mean by political.
Religion just gives individuals hope and a purpose in life. Some people need/want that, but others (people like me) don't.
It shouldn't change the way that you treat others or yourself. Whether you're religious or not we're all human and should be working to have an positive and honest impact on society.
I don't have a problem with anybody else's beliefs, we're all entitled to our own, I just hate it when they try to force others into adopting those same beliefs
Spoken in the true words of a fifteen year old Athiest.
Atheism is a religion??
SURE!
Just like NOT collecting stamps is a 'hobby', NOT smoking is a 'habit', NOT playing soccer is a 'sport'.
Cant disagree with this
