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October, 2024

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Official 333 skis / 222 skis - review/discussion board.

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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
So its about that time, people are going to be receiving their 333skis in the next few weeks, and this is the place to post up reviews.

What I would like to see, is a general summary of your skis shape, dimensions, pics etc. Then when you get to use them on snow, a first impression. Finally, after a good season of abuse, an overall conclusion on how you like/dislike them, for the skiing, durability, etc.

If you have questions about a specific pair of skis, try to PM the poster, so the thread does not get huge and cluttered. I would like to have as many pairs reviewed as possible. If you have a general question about the construction of the skis, or whatever, just PM me.
Aug 27 2009 3:15AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
your an idiot
Nov 10 2009 4:48PM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748
I am skeptical that it is taking them 3 hours to make skis and they set them in a solar oven? not sure if this is included in the 3 hours but it sounds like it.

So shoot me.

I love the concept of low impact manufacturing. Though everything I have learned shows that if you don't have high power, high heat or nasty chemicals, then you are most likely slowing down the process. This guy is doing the opposite.

So again, I hope everyone's 333 skis hold up, that you have the best shredding ever on them, and can give us feedback.
I am surprised to see them shipping already. I wasn't sure how it was going to go down.
Nov 10 2009 5:30PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
if you had read his website or any other discussion forums, you would see that its 3 hours of LABOR. this DOES NOT include cure time. 3 hours for him to cut and build, that does not include the curing

his skis are fully cured, that definitely wont be a problem

you gotta learn your facts before you post and make a fool of yourself
Nov 10 2009 5:40PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
Minus press time, 3 hours is still damn quick for a custom ski.
Nov 10 2009 7:31PM
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mer-man
Posts: 1079 - Karma: 10
every time i see this thread bumped i get so stoked that there is gunna be someone who has them
Nov 10 2009 8:13PM
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mynilla
Posts: 554 - Karma: 58
this
Nov 10 2009 8:23PM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748

Today, 03:09 AM

Heather on the TGR forums got some:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160115&page=24

[someone else will have to get the photos because I am unable]

Here's what Heather said...

"So yeah, they arrived today - really well packaged - some cloth, and then tons of plastic around them.
"[if !vml]you can notice the screws - sorta odd, but doubt it will be an issue - rivets would be smoother IMO.
"Rocker tip - and side view compared to pandoras, and el hombres I really should have gotten more rocker - but yeah... oh well."

Nov 10 2009 8:45PM
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bootleg_BEN
Posts: 2499 - Karma: 44
Looking at the tgr thread they look a little rough, as in not looking to pretty but if they perform good and hold up who cares its 333 or 222 dollars for a custom ski, what does it matter what it looks like.
Nov 10 2009 8:56PM
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bootleg_BEN
Posts: 2499 - Karma: 44
Looking at the tgr thread they look a little rough, as in not looking to pretty but if they perform good and hold up who cares its 333 or 222 dollars for a custom ski, what does it matter what it looks like.
Nov 10 2009 8:56PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
since your a ski builder, i would trust your word
but he seems to have some system down that works? i donno

to be honest rowen, after reading the TGR threads and all the other stuff, what do you think of these skis (obviously without having any reviews or hands on experience)?

also, how would i go about replacing the screws with rivets, in case i wanted to.
Nov 10 2009 8:57PM
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RudyGarmisch
Posts: 25443 - Karma: 13,844
As a professional, I'd like to keep my mouth shut on the forums about others design and manufacture. User reviews are better than speculation.
Nov 10 2009 9:53PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Let me give a shot at this. I will compare the 333skis, to the best of my ability, and ON3P too, since Rowen is with them.

From what I have seen, ON3P skis are amazing.. They are solid, lightweight, well built skis...

333skis, I do not know yet. I have a pair, they look and feel like they should hold up really well.

The boys at ON3P do a few things that I love alot. First, they use Bamboo. I have used bamboo skis and longboards, and they are just superior. They feel and respond better (IMHO), they are easier on the earth, and they hold up just as well if not better. ON3P also has a 3/4 wrap for the edges, and they have rubber dampening. I cannot say much for long term durability for ON3P as I have not owned a pair just ridden them. But I hear nothing but good things.

333skis are built on a comepletely custom basis. No other company can offer that, at the same price anyway. They have a similar if not better edge anchoring system than ON3P (kevlar anchor). But both companies use a 3/4 wrap edge, which is sweet. 333skis does not, however, use the all mighty ski press, or sidewalls. How much that affects long term durability and performance, I do not know, but people like sidewall and press built sticks better, so I guess it matters.

I am not too psyched on the nut for rivet setup, but I think it will be easy to just swap out rivets. Maybe Michael had a ton of nuts and bolts laying around? I dunno. But I think it makes them look cool? I dunno, I dont think I mind, but I might have to change it if I put my touring bindings on them, cuz I dont see putting skins over the bolts being easy.

As far as rivets, you should ask that over at TGR, they are more of a DIY crowd than NS.
Nov 10 2009 11:49PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Correct me if any of that was uninformed or incorrect Rowen.
Nov 10 2009 11:51PM
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caylorswift
Posts: 10695 - Karma: 312

Yes we here at ON3P do use bamboo, yes we use 3/4 edge wrap, and yes we use rubber dampening. We have not had any problems with our edge hold on any of our prototypes, even after numerous testers with 50+ days on their pairs.  I cannot say anything about kevlar edge anchors as i have never had a chance to ride or own a ski that utilitized that material. Could be good, could be bad, but we all will have to just wait and see.

Ive never ridden a pair of vacuum pressed skis and this is in no way meant to be geared towards 333skis production process, rideability or durability, but in my experience in talking with people that have home build set ups that use the vacuum method i have noticed that they havent had many good things to say in the ways of durability and longevity of the ski compared to the laminited sandwich construction that you get when you use a pneumatic or hydraulic ski press. As far as performance comparisons go i am all for a ski that uses sandwich construction techniques. In my own personal experience in the past, skis with cap construction have felt boring (i.e. Pocket Rockets i used back in the day) and unlively. They dont provide the rider with much responsiveness and often give the rider the feeling that they are "dead" (the skis that is). On the other hand, skis that utilize sandwich construction feel 10 fold more responsive, poppy, and forgiving giving the rider a feeling of confidence and lack of worry. (Please keep in mind this is my own personal experience)

All i can say is that Micheal and the 333skis team have a unique and very creative way of building their skis, and as a ski builder i am interested to see how it goes in the upcoming season.

Also, in reference to the above post regarding "high pressure, high heat, and nasty stuff" to produce quality skis, yes the high heat and high pressure help ensure a complete and quality bond of all materials, however, nasty stuff doesnt always end up in there.  All of our materials that are put into our skis (epoxies, topsheet materials, base materials, etc) are non toxic.

And as Rowen stated above, any questions relating to our product can be answered through him, myself, or iggyskier (Scott).

Nov 11 2009 12:33AM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018
In all seriousness, and with no disrespect to 333, comparing what we do at on3p, or what luke and casey are doing at moment, or any of the other ski mfg to what 333 is doing is sort of apples to oranges. You just really can't compare a vaccum bagged, cap sidewalled, plywood cored, sun cured ski to a ski with 30% thicker bases and edges, multiple layers of rubber, carbon, chip resistent topsheet, factory treated uhmw sidewalls, ad bamboo core that is made in a custom made aluminum cassette in a completely heat controller (to the degree), dual heat blanket pnematic ski press at putting out some 200,000 lbs of pressure at 180 degrees with specially formulated epoxy designed to be optimally cured at 180 degrees. Then you throw in the high degrees of accuracy and finishing....reichmenn belt + stone for structure, and the hotbox....I think you can see my point. I think that what mike is doing is cool and that his price is fair for what he puts out, but I think I can speak for basically every other ski builder out there when I say we are comparing apples and oranges here.
Nov 11 2009 8:42AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748
Ha, you ON3P guys could compile a book from all of your posts by now.

Just FYI, I said "or", not "and" nasty stuff. I meant that I would expect to see at least one of those elements for a solid bond, and that in absence of any of them, the process time has to be increased a lot (at least for me to throw money towards it).

Myself, I already voted with my dollars for ON3P. I really respect what you guys are doing. Non-toxic, bamboo, attention to detail, the list goes on.

However, If these 333 skis perform for those who ride them this winter, I could very easily buy some of those next year. Fully custom dimensions and input regarding flex and camber are certainly intriguing. Though I'm happy to see things like the regular 333 tip profile before making an order though. I also dig that for 222 you can go without a graphic. I would certainly entertain that.

It looks like we shall be seeing more pics of these custom boards as they are now shipping.
Nov 11 2009 9:07AM
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BlackcountryBill
Posts: 955 - Karma: 576
Pics!!!
Nov 11 2009 11:40AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748
[IMG]https://www.newschoolers.com/ns3/web/popups/viewimage.php?picurl=http://media.nscdn.com/uploads/member/pictures/1257903418333tip.JPG[/IMG]
Nov 11 2009 11:44AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748
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Nov 11 2009 11:53AM
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D.Hatch
Posts: 593 - Karma: 43
^^^^^^ mmm tasty :)
Nov 11 2009 12:49PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
those tips are a little insane... i mean im pretty sure he told her that he messed those up a little bit
but that could have been that much more put into effective edge.
Nov 11 2009 1:15PM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
Are those knots in the core?
Nov 11 2009 2:42PM
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bootleg_BEN
Posts: 2499 - Karma: 44
I have a feeling that alot of hate is going to come down on these skis in the next couple of weeks.

But you never know these might turn out to ski really good, and at 222 or 333 dollars that is a hell of a deal for custom skis. I think they wil be a good ski and am considering making my own 222 ski next year.

Plus the people that bought them are most likely stoked on them.
Nov 11 2009 2:52PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Yeah! for added character.

Also, keep in mind, that knots in the core are only going to be one one layer of the core material, so it will have minimal effect on the skis performance. Plus, he uses void free Birch. Its pretty good stuff.
Nov 11 2009 4:50PM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
Isnt a knot a void?
Nov 11 2009 5:50PM
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DrZoidberg
Posts: 5675 - Karma: 4,268
Knots are stronger than the rest of the wood I think? Ever been cutting wood then come to a knot and have to work twice as hard to saw through it?
Nov 11 2009 6:29PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i think void free technically mean no open space.
Nov 11 2009 6:31PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Here is some info on knots. They are branch roots. Kinda like a small tree within a tree. They mess up the grain pattern orientation of a wood plank. The growth pattern on a tree is always in the upward direction. Branches however, grow out, so there will be pockets in the main trunk with growth that is perpendicular to that of the trunk. This also compresses the grains around the knots, affecting local elasticity and strength. If yo don't get that, its kinda like Einsteins theory of relativity, except spacetime is the tree, and the object in the spacetime is the branch "knot"

Conclusion? Unless there are a bunch of huge knots in the plywood, (there are not). The affect is minimal at best. Since the ply is only 1/8 the thickness of the whole core, the grain pattern disruption is very very local, and so it should not affect the skis performance or durability.
Nov 11 2009 7:53PM
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Caveman.
Posts: 9067 - Karma: 330
Ya, and have you also noticed that when a piece of wood breaks or splits, its usually on or near a knot. Not trying to start hate here, and I did read Baker mans couple paragraphs. Makes sense since he is using a plywood lamination but still seems like he shouldn't use wood with knots, seems like it would be hard to get both skis to have an even flex pattern when you put knots into the equation of things.
Nov 12 2009 1:57AM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
He is using the highest grade plywood available. Its called "Void Free"

The knots that are there, are small, few, and far in between.
Nov 12 2009 2:44AM
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snomaster
Posts: 3344 - Karma: 5,748
more are arriving at the tgr thread.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160115&page=26
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This time no tip/tail screws/nuts...
Nov 12 2009 11:27PM
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ski-swagga
Posts: 5276 - Karma: 219
wow im pretty stoked on this!
Nov 13 2009 12:08AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
got my skis today, but i dont have time to review as im about to murder someone

the skis are fucking beautiful, they looks great, solid, even better then i had expected

but.... god it hurts to say.... they are not twin tips. I SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR TWIN TIPS!!!!! EVEN ON MY ORDER FORM!!!

with the tail rocker, the tails clear about 2cm.... that is not nearly enough for park skiing or even skiing switch.

fuck, the skis look great! but these arent the skis i ordered....

im waiting to hear from michael about this, i assume he will pull through and help me out. dont let me discourage anyone from buying, they are fucking awesome and everything, he just made a mistake
Nov 13 2009 4:48PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
well guys... it looks like i just found the best customer service, topping bc.com

I just got a call from Kristen, she told me "Michael is going to go ahead and build you a new pair of skis."
i think to myself "great, so im going to send these back, then im going to have to get back in like for a new pair."
I asked her "so do you want me to send these back?"

this is where i just splooged everywhere
"Nah, as far as i know, you go ahead and keep those"
"really?"
"yep, michael's not going to want them back (i guess he cant really sell them?)"
"wow.... im... im impressed... thats awesome"
"yep, so you can go ahead and mount those up. you were in the first batch, we are just finishing out second batch, and the third batch is pretty full, i'll see if i can get you into the third batch, but if not then the fourth."
"wow... thank you thats great"

2 pairs of skis for the price of 1!!!!! actually, its more like 2 pairs skis for the price of one actual ski (it so cheap...)!!


Nov 13 2009 5:24PM
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blindside
Posts: 5619 - Karma: 1,199
I'm sorry but.... bbbaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahaha



customer service sounds legit though but still, baaaaahahahahahahahahahaha
Nov 13 2009 6:52PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i know man. i started the process back in august, or maybe july? and they FINALLY came.... except they aren't a twin tip
Nov 13 2009 7:04PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
uhhhh
is it me or did the 333 thread on TGR get deleted? as well as all the other threads with 333 mentioned
Nov 13 2009 11:34PM
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Baker
Posts: 1615 - Karma: 18
It's not the first time the thread has disappeared. Conspiracy?
Nov 14 2009 10:42AM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018
Weird.  Awhile back 333 pulled all his own posts, but strange that the whole thread is gone.
Nov 14 2009 3:56PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
i know he pulled some of his own posts, but why did they delete ALL the threads? just as people were starting to get them and post up pictures, someone got rid of the threads?

i dont know anyone at TGR, and i have no idea who the mods are. but if you do, can you ask whats up with that?
Nov 14 2009 4:01PM
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iggyskier
Posts: 10447 - Karma: 10,018
Moderation over there is way different than here.  They don't really delete threads, ever.  The one somewhat active moderator pretty much said he was done a month or so ago.

So really the only way to get it deleted would be for the person who started the thread to do so, which I believe was monoboarder or something like that, or for someone to go to the admins and ask them to delete it.  And the only person they would probably delete it for was likely michael himself.  They wouldn't do it for any other reasons.

So yeah, it is really weird that it is gone, but really, the only two possible reasons to me would be that the thread creator deleted it, or 333 had the admins pull it.  Thread was totally fine, so definitely weird that it was gone.
Nov 14 2009 4:07PM
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Mt_Baker_Man
Posts: 2012 - Karma: 105
Ok people, its finally time for reviews. Here is my first impression... (will get pics up soon)

My pair are 180cm length. The tip waist tail is: 130-102-124. The tip taper is 50cm, the tail is 45. The quoted radius is 26m.

Think of them as a narrower, less fancy looking Armada JJ.

So they are pretty much what I expected. They have a small amount of camber, with a nice 20cm rockered tip, and 12cm rockered, low profile tail. The flex seems on par with what I ordered, the camber and rocker is perfect.

They are a little off for a few things, and they look a little rugged, but it shouldn't affect the skiing. But it was their first multi point, in the first batch, so I can't complain. I will try and get them mounted ASAP and get them on the snow.

I decided to use them as my touring rig this year, so I guess I will have to mod some skins or replace the nut/bolt combo with a rivet or something. But all things considered, They are pretty sweet.

 So conclusion?

cap construction, vacuum press, solar cure, decent overall features?
222 dollars, fully custom skis?

Id say that they are pretty good. They are not the best skis out there, or even close, but I think they will hold up just fine, and I am hoping they ski pretty well too.


Nov 14 2009 6:35PM
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skithedirt
Posts: 1759 - Karma: 382
these are soo sick... my threads
Nov 14 2009 10:53PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66

I found this on his site, its about the TGR thread


"In Response to the recent deleting of the 333 Thread on TGR:


Mono board is a very good friend of my family.  At this time I do not know what his intensions were.  He had asked me several days ago, why I deleted all my posts, and I explained that I did not belong in a place like TGR.  There are so many good people who are affiliated, but I have a clear personal aversion to stupid people who can act with anonymity.  So the TGR thread has always been problematic with me.  I felt it best to cut my affiliation and move forward.


I want 333 and my work to be discussed.  And believe me, it is.  As for the negative, this is very important.  If 333 can survive, it will be because we addressed the negative with good solutions.  I work from feedback, its how I know what I know.

What mono board did, I was unaware of until notified by an email from someone who has been following the thread.  It is in his nature to do so.  I probably felt he wanted nothing more to do with TGR either.  But this is speculation.

He may ask me some day when I see him what I think about the lost thread.  I'll tell him, "My man, bummed out a few good people what you did.  Even pissed off a few.  But brother, if it felt as good as it did for me to pull all my posts and cut my ties with that place, maybe you should'nt have any regrets."


I could never ask my friend to change his position.  It would violate our friendship.

Last night I was writing a farewell post for the thread.  I wanted to thank all the people who had contributed to the thread in all manners of comment.  Aside from having been disheartened with much of the thread, I do realize how many good people were willing to support 333 and my effort to build a ski for a working persons wage.  It was a way to find closure for a very bad experience for me and the company.

As it turns out, I did learn that I am not capable of building a set of skis for a jackass.  So we have built in a screening process to make sure an idiot does not receive a set of skis from my company.  There are so many good people to do business with and build skis for that we are going to focus our attention and labor on their behalf.  We learned this lesson exclusively from TGR.  You see, it was not the posts that pissed me off, bummed me out.  It is the power of ugly people acting with anonymity who coalesce into a group.  These groups have the power to do a great deal of harm, my company was starting to take hits, bad hits.  My self, family and crew were starting to pay the price.  So TGR lost all value.

Maybe 333 will fail and my choice and my friends choice to unaffiliated ourselves with the place that harbors these groups will do me in.  But  I am proud of my friend.  He was willing once again to stand along with me, and stand up for our beliefs.  One the other hand, maybe 333, our community, will prevail, and a good place for good people will form out of it.   Either way, I am not willing to work in the former but I am will to fight for the later.


Michael Lish

333"

Nov 17 2009 11:23PM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
here are my official pictures, sorry it took so long. I really can't give to much of a review, i mean its flexes awesome, feels extremely sturdy, they are super light, and just so nice looking.

tip rocker:
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camber:
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tail rocker (sorry for the blur):
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both skis:
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specs:
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tails, the seam you see is the kevlar thread used to anchor the edges:
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base and top:
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tip, you can also see the wholes used to line up the material in the build process (the ski on the left has 2 holes, probably a mistake and so they had to make another? no biggy though)
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an attempt at showing you the profile of the core and the flex pattern
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Nov 18 2009 12:37AM
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gr4
Posts: 1499 - Karma: 945
those seem almost identical to on3p jeronimo's. but on3p doesnt put holes in the bases or forget to make it a twin tip. not to mention their sick graphics.
Nov 18 2009 1:22AM
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Slinger1x1
Posts: 8853 - Karma: 66
ehhh, here we go

1. The holes are through every single layer on the ski, so the ski can be perfectly lined up. the holes are then filled in. The doesnt not effect performance or durability what so ever, and its only noticeable on the bases
2. Yes, they messed up. And you know what? they are letting me keep these, AND they are making me a new pair that are twin tips, so im getting two skis for the price of one. Does ON3P do that? (no offence to ON3P or anything, i know you guys have your shit together)
3. I think the plain wood finish looks fucking awesome. ON3P looks good too, but personally i like this plain wood finish. its extremely different and will get lots more attention that any other ski out on the mountain

and for $242 (shipped), i think these skis are pretty fucking good. so shut your mouth
Nov 18 2009 6:57PM
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phishfood
Posts: 2542 - Karma: 298
so hurt looking
Nov 18 2009 8:35PM
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Santa-Cruz
Posts: 2236 - Karma: 11
id ski even if no twintip
Nov 18 2009 9:53PM
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gr4
Posts: 1499 - Karma: 945
to each his own. sounds like the price is about right for that ski, id rather fork over a whopping $150 extra for a pair of on3ps
Nov 18 2009 11:11PM
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