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Oh yea and.... fuck windells

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eastAR5
Posts: 15084 - Karma: 730
i just got a call from my boy dan and Tim windell is officially the biggest douchebag ever and fired the entire video crew for apparently no legit reason at all suddenly, besides more profit for him. 6 years of dedication with bearly and pay for thousands of hours of hard work every summer and its just done like that.. He just fucked over my friends lives at least temporarily and the chillest Boss I have ever had, is now unemployed with bills and rent piling up and will probably have to move. Banned from windells park and campus , summer ruined for all the filmers who now need to find a way to get home and will loose hundreds of dollars. The only reason I am not in the same situation is cause i broke my cam and had to take this summer off. Anyways respect to everyone who chose not to support this guy and attend other summer camps that still have some morals
Jun 13 2008 4:28PM
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KAS
Posts: 1417 - Karma: 68
^^^They do send something that says stuff about a dvd but it's like $200 extra or something.
Jun 14 2008 8:51PM
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eastAR5
Posts: 15084 - Karma: 730
try like 750
Jun 14 2008 8:53PM
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Bab.
Posts: 766 - Karma: 22

dude that sucks
its funny how just yesterday i told a friend he shoul go to momentum again instead of windells and then i see this thread. i hope he doesnt get fucked like the ones that went on session1

Jun 14 2008 8:54PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
  I'm really sorry for everyone who's summer and camp/work experience was effected so negatively.  It is an awful thing to have your financial security swept out from underneath, particularly in this instance where so much confusion and frustration is present. 
  That being said, there are two distinct issues being discussed in this thread that are becoming blurred into one big mess.  Initially, this thread was about filmers losing their job for perceived illegitimate reasons.  This parlayed into the issue of the first session campers' dissatisfaction with weather, lack of a private park, etc.  The second issue is essentially being used by some as an example of Tim's selfishness and general shady business practice.  I've never been to Windell's and know little about it.  I've never met Tim and for all I know he is a flaming deusche bag.  True or not, it's clear that this isn't nearly as simple as Tim simply deciding to fuck over a bunch of people and the fact that Session 1 was a shit show, has no bearing on the filming issue.
  I've been a little annoyed by Papasteeze's seeming attempts to minimize this issue and write it off as well.  That being said, he and others who have refrained from the out and out Tim bashing, have made good points.
  Clearly Eric and Tim had a discussion/agreement (should have been a formal contract if it wasn't) around the camper's dvds.  From what's been posted, Tim stated his desire to purchase the dvd's, or in essence, provide them to the campers "free".  All that should have meant is that Eric would be paid directly by Tim for the filiming and production, as opposed to being paid by individual campers.  This is known as subcontracting and is done in every business, particularly construction (i.e. a Builder (Tim) is paid by a home buyer (camper) to build a house.  The builder reaches out to a trade specific contractor such as an electrician (Eric) (who may have a number of employees) to perform a specific job (film and produce dvds).  The electrician doesn't bill the home buyer, in fact he has no business with the home buyer as he is employed by the builder.  The builder includes the price of the electrician's materials and labor (pre arranged between the two) in the total price of the home. ($1800)).  If Eric felt that Tim's offer wasn't sufficient to cover costs and to match his anticipated profits, he never should have agreed.  The solution is definitely not to roll the cost back to the camper.  That's like a bank teller shorting you, robbing the bank for what your'e owed, and then justifying your means by the ends.  Eric charging individual campers is basically double charging.  I appreciate that Eric is a good dude and intended to reinvest for the greater good, but you can't simply change the terms of an agreement...especially if you don't run the show. 
Jun 14 2008 8:57PM
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SteezyMcDizzle
Posts: 514 - Karma: 31
a big part of this is that in a lot of cool ski jobs employees are thought to be easily replaceable..
but just because 100 people will step up doesnt mean that they will be as good as the old employees..
thats the attitude ive felt before though.. "we hook you up with the drug you need (skiing) and you become our bitch, where we can do with you whatever we like"

i am not saying that its like that everywhere, but i believe its like that in most ski resort jobs where the shitty attitude toward employees is combined with low pay and inconsistency
Jun 14 2008 9:02PM
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SteezyMcDizzle
Posts: 514 - Karma: 31
Just to clarify, the best and most consistent/reliable ski industry jobs I have had were in Accounting, and on Park Crew...Park Crew being the dankest most steezmatic job ive ever had
Jun 14 2008 9:04PM
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huckaberry
Posts: 993 - Karma: 14
well you guys have to remember they got at least 2 feet of snow while they were there and its a little hard to make a nice park when its snowing
Jun 14 2008 9:06PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748
  It was Eric's responsibility to impress upon Tim the simple fact that he was incapable of providing his services for the figure Tim proposed.  If Tim felt that he could get someone to do it for that price, he has every right to pursue other avenues.  The natural consequence if Eric would have backed out would have been shitty or non-existent camper dvds --> unhappy campers/parents --> less campers next year and poor reviews.  The bottom line is Eric consciously and knowingly did things his way against his bosses wishes.  Ski camp or an accounting firm, not doing what the boss says amounts to the same thing.  No job for you.  It's unfortunate because eric and his crew seem like good dudes who love the sport and are stoked on kids' riding.  I hope you guys find another opp soon! 
Jun 14 2008 9:09PM
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ILoveOhio
Posts: 1793 - Karma: 253
Go watch these videos.  Eric made most of them (along with others).  They are on this page http://www.windells.com/camps.php
Jun 14 2008 9:10PM
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SteezyMcDizzle
Posts: 514 - Karma: 31
sorry for triple post..this whole scenario pisses me off, and i keep getting mad and wanting to say more..i dont know for sure but i think this story is legit and i am definitely siding with the film crew..its a huge commitment to go all the way across the country to Oregon, for something thats not even a full job..

some people think that just because you are skiing all summer you can put up with bullshit..
Its not just skiing, it actually sounds like hard work..and working on the palmer snowfield in the sun cant be easy either.  they probably dont even get a lot of ski time..

anyway..just because you are doing a job you love, and a job that a lot of people would also do, doesn't mean you should be treated like trash...
Jun 14 2008 9:12PM
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emokiller
Posts: 191 - Karma: 10
there is def something going on, sounds like Tim is doing some house cleaning.
Jun 14 2008 9:16PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Thank you Casual - I am in that exact building business.  BTW If I wanted to minimalize I would not be replying to this thread, I would have let it die..  It's quite the contrary.  I want the truth, the problem identified cause then a solution can be found.

OK,  New Summary Guess/speculation on my part.

Background:  Eric has sold thousands of dollars of Filming through several dozen specialized DVD's to some individuals paying his price in previous years

This Spring:

Eric:  Yo Tim, we on to film at Camp again this year?

Tim:  Yeah man, except I want every camper to get a free DVD

Eric: Yeah Cool,  campers would be super stoked and you will get more in return, I'll get you a price to do that when I get out there, it should be about $ per disc...

Tim: Ok! stoked! See you soon!

OK now, roll the clocks forward.

Eric does the math, figures out the lost revenue from individual sales and presents that along with production costs and presents it to Tim and Tim balks.  Eric goes WTF!  "I'm screwed" and then proceeds to sell some DVD's to recoup impending losses or to cover new expenses?  Does anyone know at what price he was selling the DVD's?

What I said originally in this thread apparently still stands.  The agreement for services of free DVD's for each camper was not agreed upon or Eric undercut himself and got himself in a huge bind.  Both are to blame IMO and should work out their differences now!

Jun 14 2008 9:29PM
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casual
Posts: 6712 - Karma: 6,748

That sounds incredibly plausible.

Jun 14 2008 9:32PM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
What they need to do is hughug over a bowl of lucky charms.
Jun 14 2008 9:43PM
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BenjiPond
Posts: 18 - Karma: 10
tim tried saying he should take our passes but then eric reminded him that eric paid for them- not windells
Jun 14 2008 9:44PM
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BenjiPond
Posts: 18 - Karma: 10
Tim has NO CONTROL over the weather. its a risk you take going to an early, or late unpredictable session.  that being said dont try to mix the emotions of a crappy session 1 with this bit about us all losing our jobs. one kid flew out yesterday just to find out upon arrival he flew out for no reason whatsoever.
Jun 14 2008 9:52PM
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jaylib
Posts: 4523 - Karma: 777
Haha reading this thread is making me really upset that i spend $1800 of my hard earned money on this ski camp. believe me this drained my account and i had to have help from my parents who can't afford that either. I did it because it's suppost to be the "funnest place on earth." I'm leaving monday morning to go out there,  if it's not to what it's supposidly been like i'm going to be so let down and dissapointed. I will also find some sort of way to sue them and get my money back. This is horrible.

Spending all of my money on a summer dream and it's not going to happen
Jun 14 2008 9:55PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Good god..   I am really still confused.    You have passes, you have camera equipment, you still have campers.  Get up there on the hill and find out which kids are willing to pay for the service and sell them a DVD!

I still don't understand this "firing" that occured, you guys didn't get paid in past years.  What have you lost?  It sounds like you still have everything available to make this work.

You guys didn't do the session edits, you guys were like exclusive private contractors and it sounds like you still can be. 
Jun 14 2008 9:56PM
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eastAR5
Posts: 15084 - Karma: 730
the kids want to ride the windells park.... being fired means you cant anymore
Jun 14 2008 10:02PM
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ILoveOhio
Posts: 1793 - Karma: 253
I don't think they are allowed into Windells.........unless the passes are for Windells.  They were going to be making 250 bucks a week..............they spent probably over a grand to get out to Oregon trying to chase their dreams at becoming a filmer and getting their names out there.

The snowpeception crew is all on here....nice.
Jun 14 2008 10:03PM
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NoTeefa
Posts: 9566 - Karma: 129
Tim is and always has been under the accurate perception that he can pretty much do whatever he wants to his employess, because if they quit, there's a line of hundreds of little snowboard bums itching to take their places.
I lived at Hood and worked at the brew pub for a couple of summers, I didn't have anything to do with windells, but I was friends with a lot of Windells employees. It seems Windells is probably one of the worst summer jobs you could get (low pay if any, shitty living conditions etc.), you don't even get to ride that much really. But at the same time it seems that most of the people that worked at the camp were really immature and were there to party more than they were there to work (exclude the video guys from this generalization, Eric and his crew were always tight). I guess you get what you pay for right?
After two years of living at Hood I have some strong feelings about the camps and the egos and bullshit that go along with the camps and I can honestly say that if any High cascade digger tries to tackle me for skiing down next to their park in order to get to the MHSSC park somebody's going to get bloody.
Jun 14 2008 10:10PM
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KAS
Posts: 1417 - Karma: 68
Yeah, I tohught it was more than $200. I just didn't want to say way more and be way wrong...
Jun 14 2008 10:11PM
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KAS
Posts: 1417 - Karma: 68
Well, it should still be fun on the actual camp grounds... we will just have to win a shit load of stuff to make up for it, or at least you will !!
Jun 14 2008 10:17PM
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[steez]wrecka18
Posts: 232 - Karma: 45
I was filming for the session video, rather than filming camper videos. Since we had sponsors lined up for the video, and we were supposed to be doing web updates and such along with the session video, we had a lot more responsibility in regards to what we were doing for camp. Last year, the first year the session video was done, the filmers didn't get paid at all, they had to buy their pass and were allowed to eat at camp, but that was about it.

However, Tim never officially put us on the payroll, and it's pretty obvious that he never actually intended to pay us from the start. Just get us to film until he felt he could get another group of kids to film for free, then drop us.
Jun 14 2008 10:19PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Thats not what I am getting.  Eric bought the filmers thier Windells pass. Thats what was stated above. NOW - who was paying the $250 to the filmers?  Windells or Eric?  

If it is Eric, then your beef is with him regardless of how stand up the guy has been in previous years, he is your employer and he brought you there under a certain pretense.

If it is Windells that was paying the filmers directly and now won't because of some rift between Tim and Eric.  Does anyone see where I am going with this?

Does this Eric guy have a website and how many videos at $750 does he average in a season? Any guesses?   Tell me again why you guys can't be up there getting footage and making contact with potential clients?  You have passes, equipment and campers and no pay - the same thing you had last year.
Jun 14 2008 10:23PM
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SnowMedic
Posts: 2132 - Karma: 25
ya i have no idea who you are and apparently you have no idea who i am. I dont have any clothing co. I have not even been to or had any thing to do with windells or tim. Mike is a hell of a lot bigger than me, but he does do a good job I wll not deny that he just gets angry easy.

way to jump to conclusions
Jun 14 2008 10:30PM
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AptosFreeskier
Posts: 1240 - Karma: 17
hmmmmm what about the short tempured guy who is really angry at them who happens to OWN the park.

Tim would definately not let them ride the park. Im pretty sure the passes are for timberline not windells.
Jun 14 2008 10:35PM
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[steez]wrecka18
Posts: 232 - Karma: 45
Yeah, what you're saying makes sense, but Tim never said that we weren't permitted to sell DVDs to pay for costs associated with authoring DVDs for all the campers, that's why we were so shocked when he fired us. I've talked to several other people about this and they've told me that Tim told them that the session DVDs were supposed to be free to all the campers and that since he felt that Eric was being underhanded and shady by selling them to campers, there was no way he could trust him or have a working business relationship with him in the end. This reasoning makes absolutely no sense since he had already backed out on the authoring deal and Eric had made him aware that he was unable to author DVDs at that scale of production, due to the costs involved. Eric shouldn't have to pay for free DVDs for all the campers out of his own pocket. Tim needed to either cover the costs for the authoring or he shouldn't have asked Eric to hire session filmers in the first place.
Jun 14 2008 10:38PM
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SteezyMcDizzle
Posts: 514 - Karma: 31
lol..the feeling is mutual
Jun 14 2008 10:49PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Please read this everyone. 
Jun 14 2008 10:52PM
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[steez]wrecka18
Posts: 232 - Karma: 45
As session filmers, we were supposed to be on Windells payroll and under the employ of the camp. Eric just appointed us for the job because we either applied for it or we were interns in years past and knew what kind of work we were capable of doing. Tim needs to pay us and our beef is with Tim, not Eric. This may seem confusing to a lot of people reading this because I am the only person posting in here who was actually supposed to be receiving any money out of this. The other dudes are interns who weren't making any money in the first place. Their deal is completely with Eric, they just lost their entire reason for coming out when he was fired.

Eric's been doing the video thing for about 5 years. He does around 60 or so in a year. He doesn't have a website, but he sends flyers out to all the campers coming to camp advertising the service.

Personally, I would not have come out to film unless I was getting paid. That was the bottom line for me. I may be in the same circumstances I was in last year, at least for a few weeks, but this year I am in a totally different situation financially than I was last year (I spent around $750 to get to camp). I would not have come out at all if I had known Tim never planned on paying us in the first place.
Jun 14 2008 10:58PM
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[steez]wrecka18
Posts: 232 - Karma: 45
In reference to AdrenalineGarage's post. Tim never paid Eric for anything related to the session DVDs and never said that we would still have to provide DVDs for all the campers. He switched to wanting them produced for online distribution simply because he couldn't fund a distribution project on that scale.
Jun 14 2008 11:09PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Yeah damn............   As many hours as I have dived into this, it still appears to me that Eric made a deal with Tim and then backed out of it or tried to renegotiate it.  Every thing points to Eric screwing this up from a black and white perspective, factoring out the past chill behavior of Eric or the assholish nature of Tim.

In a court. 

Tim would owe Eric the original agreed to fee. Provided, Eric delivers DVD's to each camper.  Interns are owed payment from Eric.  Since Eric broke the agreement by selling DVD's instead of providing him them for free, a judge may decide to prorate the fee based on the sessions complete. However Eric would still have to provide DVDs for each camper in that session.

As far as the payment for the interns, a judge will rule that Eric owes those employees including yourself for your subcontract with Windells since it was compromised by Eric by no fault of your own.

Regardless of that being the "right" thing thats the way the cookie will crumble.

So curse Tim for being an ass and Eric for being a poor businessman.



In previous years, was the custom camper DVD fee paid to Windells or was it paid to Eric?
Jun 14 2008 11:11PM
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ILoveOhio
Posts: 1793 - Karma: 253
Basically Tim Windell fucked a bunch of filmers over because he likes penis.
Jun 14 2008 11:16PM
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NoTeefa
Posts: 9566 - Karma: 129
If I had to guess (and I do) I would say that there probably aren't any written contracts involved in any of this. That's just not how these things get done on Mt.Hood ya see?
Jun 14 2008 11:17PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
Boy o boy.. the plot thickens.   I knew there was more to the story.

Are you saying that when Eric said he couldn't produce that many DVDs that Tim then said to just do an online distribution?
Jun 14 2008 11:28PM
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papasteeze
Posts: 12055 - Karma: 913
yeah understood..  still, verbals are upheld when there is nothing else.  This really sucks for the aspiring filmer.....  
Jun 14 2008 11:31PM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
From my understanding of the posts, wasn't it...?

Background: Eric has sold thousands of dollars of Filming through several dozen specialized DVD's to some individuals paying his price in previous years

This spring:

Eric:Yo Tim, we on to film at Camp again this year?

Tim:Yeah man, its good, same thing

Eric: alright, good so heres the budget and all that

tim: looks good seeya out there

...later on, tim calls eric back into the office

Tim:Every camper needs a free dvd. we need to renegociate this budget

eric:Alright lets try, but I need money to produce the dvds. we depended on the money from campers buying them in previous years to cover production costs.

tim:sorry man, Im cutting that out of your budget. the campers get free dvds

eric:I can't give them free dvds if you cut my budget. I will have no way of producing them.

Tim:whatever, that's your problem.

then the rest happens

Jun 15 2008 12:01AM
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ATLskier
Posts: 8203 - Karma: 406
seeing as how they are prob banned from windells lane, it would prob be very hard for them to get windells campers to film with them. Plus without any organized program where kids' parents enroll them into it for an extra $750 before camp even starts, eric and the crew would have a tough time getting kids to film. ...imagine...hey kid want to film, it's only 750 and e arent affiliated with the camp. kid says ok, let me call my parents which the parents are already like fuck no, cause its sprung on them at the last minute and its some random guy on the lift, not a camp worker.


i guess eric and the rest of the guys could hope for more bad weather and fuck ups by windells to try and film kids at the public park, museums, and thrift stores.
Jun 15 2008 12:09AM
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fillup
Posts: 4904 - Karma: 568
whistler is sooooooooo much better anyway
Jun 15 2008 12:09AM
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T-Burminator.
Posts: 150 - Karma: 11
Haha anyone else been watching this shit progressively get outta hand haha. Where the fuck is that guy with the ostrich skiing.

And i'm still calling we need a direct explanation from windells, preferably Tim  or Eric.
Jun 15 2008 12:42AM
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SteezyMcDizzle
Posts: 514 - Karma: 31
^right here bro


Jun 15 2008 12:46AM
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[~_~]
Posts: 20239 - Karma: 1,273
Every transaction I have had in the ski industry except for a couple were under verbal agreement...no contracts or anything, which is funny, because the ones where there was no contract are the ones where I never got paid for film work I did.

Still though, what I like about the ski community is how you can usually trust other people and not have to bring legal bullshit into small transactions, but recent events have been squandering this righteous virtue...
Jun 15 2008 1:20AM
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k-rob
Posts: 14217 - Karma: 2,891
I suppose the simple fact of this issue would be that Tim Windell overreacted when this Eric guy thought he wouldn't care. Tim does sound like a major asshole, from what I've read, but Eric also seems like he was acting rather unprofessionally in selling the videos without Tim's consent. Even though Eric's intentions were ethically justified, as a rule he should do only what his boss tells him he can do. Tim and Eric are both at some fault in this matter, and they need to both accept some responsibility for what went down. I really feel sorry for the guys who've been stranded by what occured, especially when it was not their fault. I hope none of you ever forget that no matter how chill and nice someone can seem, and even if you know that their intentions are good, they can still make mistakes and fuck you over.
As far as the session one skiers who, you have to admit, got ripped off, it's somebodies job to compensate them for that. If the weather didn't allow for skiing, they deserved some sort of partial refund for what they missed out on, because the money the paid is supposed to go to their skiing time, and if they don't get the skiing time they paid for, their money is simply going into Tim's pocket.
I personally would not attend any summer camp outside of Whistler, simply because their reputation is very good.
Jun 15 2008 1:46AM
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JamesR
Posts: 3396 - Karma: -12
Tim and Eric Awesome Show? no but it sounds like no matter whos fault it was, the filmers got fucked. good luck to all+++
Jun 15 2008 1:53AM
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jake_s
Posts: 384 - Karma: 3,793
i am one of the session filmers out here at hood, the situation really does suck, we got screwed over.

I would advise everyone watch for a post by Eric shortly, it will be a straight-up explanation of what happened. Eric won't lie about anything and will be perfectly straight forward in what he says, and will be the truth. Hopefully it will answer all questions...

Jun 15 2008 1:57AM
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BenjiPond
Posts: 18 - Karma: 10
your an idiot. where do you guys get your ideas from? in past years the dvds have been independently sold. thats just how it went. this year tim wanted to do something different but he never followed through with the plan and then forgot that he didnt ever get to an agreement with eric so eric continued to do what he usually would of done, make pocket change of session videos.... and for all yu guys who think erics in it for the money---- he made friggin under 100 dollars off selling session videos to session 1- he also spent 36 hours which i can honestly vouch for editing together the session video. he stayed up all night and was still up in the morning editing when i woke up... so thats 36 hours editing, plus he was on hill 3 out of 6 days since the other 3 were rain days where he filmed from 945- 230pm those days, on the rain days he would as well go into camp for a few hours and get filler shots and activity filming. do the math buddy and you will see that in all reality if he were to be getting paid by the hour, he barely makes minimum wage. and not once did i hear eric complain about money issues. the night that tim fired our crew, he went over to tims house,brought him tims camera that he fixed for him and tried to give tim  the money he made off  session videos. open your eyes you idiots are so ignorant.  you think hes a nice guy cuz he runs this "mazing" summer camp so you assume you know how he is. get a hint from the other 10 or so at least employees that have posted in this thread all saying negative stuff.....


is there a current employee yet that has said something positive about tim? tims in this to run his camp and do what he needs to do, we are all expendable. the first instant someone wants a raise, he can just fire them and rehire a new kid who will work for next to nothng. ask around
Jun 15 2008 2:00AM
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SteezyMcDizzle
Posts: 514 - Karma: 31
respect for eric's film crew
Jun 15 2008 2:17AM
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SirFryanator
Posts: 11149 - Karma: 1,415
sooooo I'm going session 4. I'm guessing no filming, but a park will be open and it will still be a dope time, am I right?
Jun 15 2008 2:32AM
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nigel12
Posts: 571 - Karma: 11
if your assuming that people who smoke bud wont get far in life your pretty fucking dumb
i have freinds who smoke everyday and get 90's in some of the highest level courses in high school.
other freinds who are doing really well in eginearing and also happen to smoke alot.
you'd be suprised how many of you and your freinds parents smoke chron. and they've obsiously put you in a good enough position so that your able to ski which is a super expensive sport which you only realize when you pay for all your own shit, gas  everything.

sorry to get off track but i thought that was bs, just liek how windells didn't have a park set up for the campers, they should deffinitly get a refund or percentage off

Jun 15 2008 2:38AM
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