this pisses me off.

what is the subject that is being discussed here. Frist it was about how people push religion onto others, then it lead into the existence of god, then lead into quantum mechanics (vacuums) which lead into evolution vs. creatism , which lead into entropy and thermodynamics, and now here.

I'm not complaining about it. I like reading the different point of views,and i find the topics being discussed very interesting. so carry on men. carry on debating.

i won't jump in the whole thermodynamics becuase i know just the basics of the laws and such. so continue.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

What a fantastic thread, i cant believe ive missed this thread untill now. Ive read it from start to finish and im really impressed with the arguments put forth. Id really like to try and contribute
Gravtech ive just finished my degree in biochemistry and biological chamistry. And i totaly agree and support all that you have said i didnt know about the vacume fluctuations but ive read a little bit and you did a really good job in explaining it.
You argumrnt on entropy is correct, Phatt Tim i read some of your post and how you say you cannot turn a dog into a cat. That is true, But the whole theory of it all is based with small benifical steps, over a MASSIVE period of time. Theres a quirky fact that if the earths age were compared to the length of a mile humans have evolved in the last centemeter. (it kinds of puts the timeframe into perpective) So all though you say you cant magic a limb or eye or fin out of nowhere there is a logical step of events that could explain how they came about (these would be unproveable but its a theory) So when you say if we came from the sea why do we not have gills, simply because they only work under water and we just dont need them. Some one else posted that its enviromental pressures that force these changes. e.g. if loads of fish were in a tank with an enviroment that suited them well they would not change, but change say the amount of oxygen in the water and there will be fish in the tank that will have a natural advantage over the others. they will outcompete them and take over. The key to this is small changes.
A really good example of small scale evolution is the glapogus (sp?) islands. when they were first inhabited a small bird was brought over and intorduced, and it was introduced all over the islands. all the birds were of the same species. because the islands a seperate land masses and the birds could not cross over they had there own mini enviroment which they would have adapted to. Now and really intersting point is, is that these birds having come from a common ancestor are now completly different species, (i.e they are still very similar but cannot interbreed). Some of them are larger prob due to having more food, And they have all there own mating song which is different to each island. This is evolution, its happened and its been proven. However there is one question that i struggle with, what makes us different from animals, why do we have self awareness, is that evolved? Im in no way a religeous man but if a supreem being did have a hand in our life it is that fact that we are self aware.

[Post removed by moderators.]

haha, yeah Mormons. I was up at ski camp and a mormon passed out one of his books to me... i was like wtf do I want this for? He said just read it and think about it.


-Rapt0r

Don't you have it when some ass brained schlong fag comes and says something like that in the middle of a great conversation??

Yo Bigrich, very interesting post man, that's cool about those birds that all came from a common ancestor and have all adapted to their own environment. Very cool. I have to go think up some more stuff to write.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

and the whole time perspective thing...i watched this thing on human evolution and it said that homo-sapiens (us) have been alive for 10,000 years, and that they think there has been no advancements in the dna. They also said that our species has been evolving for 5 million years. that is a very long time period, and our 10,000 years may not even be close to long enough to notice any changes in homo-sapiens.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

ok i havent read all the posts on this thread cuz i suspect they are all teh same as the first half page.

I think forcing yourself into organised religion is kinda dumb. Say you believe in all the factors of Religion X, apart from factor Y. Why then should you commit yourself to religion X and go along with factor Y when you tihnk its BS. Taking this further, most people calling themselves Christians today would be laughed at by more devout Christians who keep more of the Christian ways than most people would. What im trying to say here is at what point does one cease to be a follower of a religion. Say for example I believed that 'God' created adam and eve and all that story. If that is the only Christian thing i believe am I a Christian? If I believe it to be wrong to eat beef for spiritual reasons, does that make me a hindu? No i would say it doesn't.

I think before debating something the terms need to be defined also. What is a religion? Commonly it would be described as a shool of thought and practises cenering around a higher, conscious, being of some type. If this is what a religion is, then I follow no religion. However I think it is more appropriate to define a religion as a set of morals and ethics that one tends to live by that would dictate what one does in situations. In this case then I ofcourse do have a religion, but certianly none anyone has a name for.

To this end it seems stupid to adopt someone else's beliefs, and to have a name for yourself. You want to be called a Christian, or woteva, so u go to chruch and try to believe all the crap they force down your throat.

95% of people believe in some form of God. I would bet that the vast majority believe this because their parents told them it was true at a very young age when they were impressionable and would believe anything. This is why when peopel become older and can think for themselves they realise wtf is this crap, and they get out of their religion. You dont see many atheists picking up a religion do you?

Despite not follwoing any relgion in the conventional sense, that is living to serve some kind of unseen omnipotent being, I reject the term atheist. It gives the wrong meaning to most people I think and would to convey my intended description of myself. It's far to hard to explain what im trying to say here, but im sure some of u guys understand, u seem to be pretty in tune with this kinda of stuff.

I believe that religion was developed by rulers to keep order in their people. What better deterrant to offend than an eternity of pain in hell? Many people of weak mind never think to question what they have been bought up to believe. I was bought up as Christian, but as soon as I was physically able to ponder such matters, I just started thinking wtf, this is BS. I don't believe there to be a god in the conventional sense of a conscious creating and governing being, but define god differently and perhaps I do believe in the concept.

For all the people saying shit like 'The big bang didnt happen because it cant becuase God did it' and that kinda shit, get down to your local library and rent out shit loads of books on everything. Read them all and keep reading. Read all heavy shit, physics topics will be the most relevant seeing as most of the shit in this thread boils down to like creation and origin of matter etc. Don't be afraid to question what you are told is right. Read, learn, and keep questioning shit. Don't just buy anything they tell u. Ask questions, and dont settle for BS answers like 'Because God made it so'.

I think the major religions have much to offer in the way of how to behave and shit like that, afterall they were made to control the people so they must have some relevant stuff. Like I mean the morals and shit like that. That is why I would be just as prepared to read a holy book from woteva religion as to read a scientific book. Im not afraid that anything I read will alter my beliefs and neither should u. I cant believe some people I try to talk to about religion when they say 'I dont want ot talk about it' I ask why, and they say 'incase i don't believe it anymore'. What the fuck is that about.

Wow ive talked alot of shit huh? well i hope atleast one person got through to reading this whole huge assed post. I expect all thsi shit dont apply to most of u. From the topics of other threads, and the kinda shit people say, it seems most of u are totally open minded and not afraid to entertain new thoughts. I mean skiing is all about freedom and shit so i think the attitutde that comes with it is good.

Dudes, you all know wot i was trying to say up there i hope.

-- Joe

I really liked that last post, kudos.

While they may not be a vast magority, there are quite a few people -sans religon, who have converted to something or other. In about the same way there are people who decide to reject what they've been force fed over the years.

But I am still wondering about religons other than christianity and judaism. If anyone could comment?






*yawn*

yeah. that was a very good post. the only thing is that when I say I'm catholic a lot of people will jump on me and say that I'm stupid and adam and eve never happened. and I say 'I KNOW IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! It's an allegory to show social responisibility etc. etc.'. The reality is that there are a lot of different types of catholicism. I don't go to church every week and I believe in evolution and the big bang and I'm not going against my religion, roman catholicism. While there are some things about the religion that I may not like they don't affect my ideology, they're more political issues than anything. Far too many people stray away from catholicism simply because of the stigma around evolution, when it is infact accepted (ask the pope!... p.s. buy me a pope mobile)

witchbaby I'm not sure exactly what your question was, something about converting and other religions. My hindu friend did this presintation in one of my classes and someone made the comment 'well maybe I should be hindu' and he said that hinduism believes that the life that you are born into is the path which is best for you and because everything is 'godlike' or from the gods then whatever faith you practice you are still praying to the supreme being. So becomeing hindu from judaism is essentially straying from the path. but that being said they can't deny anyone from belonging to their religion. it's an interesting thought.
-Mike

'Isn't 14 legal for everyone?' - Dave Pauls

woah i wish i got into this thread way before i missed alot of it bc id have tons of stuff to add

tim, back to some law you were talking about where when things are left alone they deteriorate-
it is almost impossible for evolution to be true because:
design points to a designer. You do not throw a bunch of stuff together and get order. how can you explain all the unbelievable parts of our universe? The planets revolving around the sun, the amazing make-up of our bodies..there are so many things that are unexplainable. look at plants and animals and how they live in nature. look at the pretty things in nature, the change in seasons. notice how everything that man makes either goes in and out of style or constantly changes. colors and design in nature have always stayed the same and have always been perfect. you cannot get such great design and order just by chance. I believe in God because you dont get something out of nothing. There had to be a creator. Evolution of species cannot be proven either because no species is in evolution today. even though some people say that it occurs in spurts, we dont see animals that are crosses between one animal and another. Every animal is in a different phylum, a different species, a different class. they are all in order. notice how much i use the word order. There has to be a God otherwise there would be complete chaos. And every civilization or nation that has completely trusted in God has succeeded and run well. It is only when we stray from the biblical teachings and God when things go wrong.

Also, i dont see why people accept any type of belief. it seems as if as long as you believe something for you and it works, thats ok and acceptable. How is that acceptable? There is only one 'right'. everything else is wrong and who knows where it is going to take you. My advice to you is to study everything real hard, know your facts, and then make a decision. do not make your decision on what people tell you, or your impression from other people. Make your decision based on evidence. Use the Bible, use the Koran, use whatever. but study into where these books came from. I hate when people believe in something just because it works for them to fit their lifestyle or just because it is easy. You dont run your beliefs around yourself, you base your beliefs on what is true.



______________
seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

ski_instructor: Yea that was kidna one of the points i was trying to address in my fatigue fuelled post up there. I was saying like how much of a religions things must one believe or follow to be called of that religion. It seems that u are right on what i was saying, in that you reject some of the crap as fiction and can see the real reason for in being told, and u can still follow whatever guidelines for life you want. That I think is really no different to an atheist who has strong moral codes etc. Im not saying ure an atheist, u know wot i mean yea? I think its good that you dont just blindly accept everything your religion gives you and can sort the shit from the worthwhile stuff. Thats what everyone should strive to do, I tihnk.

sorry, forgotten your name but the dude above me saying about order and shit: Science can infact explain why things appear so ordered. I tihnk it is quite primative in a way to put complicated things down to 'god' because one doesn't understand them. You said about reading the bible or koran, add to that loads of nice scientific books - and not school texts books cuz the shit they teach u at school is crap.
Yea it is pretty intense looking at nature and trying to figure out how u can get such complex constructions from like a mass of random shit. But you say nature doesnt change, and it's designs stay the same. This simply isnt the case. Plants and animals do ofcourse change their 'design' to better fit their environment. It's evolution dude.

This thread is pretty cool dont u think?

--Joe

To nipe: what is wrong with a person choosing their own religion, it doesn't have to come out of a holy book or whatever just to make it right. I live by my own morals and beliefs that don't come out of a holy book and it has led me to a ver enjoyable and happy life. I have looked into Christianity and it just doesn't seem to cut it for me, 'god created all men' just like that just isn't substantial evidence for me to believe that that actually happened. People should be able to believe and live thier lives however they want to. that's what it all comes down to. if their beliefs and morals truly work for them, then let them be. The beliefs and morals do not, whatsoever, have to come straight out of a holy book.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

also to nipe: what's wrong with people chosing a religion just becuase it fits their lifestyle? what's wrong with that?

also, you said to base your decisions on 'truth'. well then, i ask you this question; what is truth? how do u know it's the truth? just becuase it's in a book that was written a long time ago automatically makes it the all-knowing truth? i find that hard to believe.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

i mean if that's what someone truly believes, then let them believe it. if one believes in the bible, then so be it.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

dude

skibum1080: about religion and lifestyle: the whole idea of choosing something to believe in is because there are questions out there, like where did we come from, where are we going to go when we die, ect. You choose a religion because you believe it is true. The definition for Religion is:
'Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.' You believe because you know. And you know because of evidence for that belief. However no belief can be completely proven, whether it be evolution, creation, the existance of God, ect. That is where faith steps in. There has to be a reasonable amount of doubt for faith to exist. In my belief there is faith because some questions just cant be answered. However most questions can, and everything makes sense, so i believe, not based on complete hard evidence, because there is faith involved.
______________
seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

Nipe, I completley believe exactly every single thing that you said in your post before this one just above mine. Thats exactly what I think dude. Despite all the scientific proof that actually prooves evolution wrong, there is everything that you said. Down to the most minute little detail on each piece of sand, the colour of every single piece of hair on your head, the shape of your fingernails, the size of your penis, the number of reb blood cells that flow through your live each minute, the colour of water, the DNA structure of weed, the way alcohol affects your body, the pretty colours that we get in Autumn/Fall, as you said, 'Design points to a designer.' And you know what?? I think you're exactly right.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

Here's what I want to do, I want people who are actually true believers and who pray to have their brain activity monitored during prayer and see what the neurologists come up w/, and then see if this activity (if it is significantly different from all other brain activity) ever occurs in animals, why wouldn't animals have some awareness of the supernatural being.

well, it they have true faith in what they believe, then let them believe it. but the evidence for their beliefs doesn't necisarily have to come from a concrete item (bible). their evidence could just come from themselves and their minds.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

i know we've gone through this with the vacuum fluctuations and all, but that's just not cutting it; how else can you explain everything that's here. if everything came from absolute nothingness, then why is Earth the only planet with life? wouldn't all the other planets be the same if they came from the same matter that was supposedly 'just floating around in space'? i just don't see how anybody could not believe in some sort of a higher being.


'Anyone got any hot sisters they wanna sell?'
-skipimp_

*Proud Member of the HoBum Posse

they have done tests on the effectivenss of praying on humans and noted that it does have extraordinary brain activity. But in an animal how are you going to know if the animal is praying or not. How do you know if animals even do pray? In the bible it says that people are much more important than birds and other animals so maybe animals aren't even required to believe, maybe they don't, maybe they do. but you can never do a test like that on an animal.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

animals don't have the ability to comprehend something like god. take a dog for instance you talk to it in a nice voice, but you say something like 'you ugly little rat bastard' it can't tell the difference. now how do you expect it to believe in god if it doesn't even understand what you say to it.


'Anyone got any hot sisters they wanna sell?'
-skipimp_

*Proud Member of the HoBum Posse

no dude ur wrong...if you yell and scream at ur dog/cat it notices it, also when you talk nicely to it it notices that too, lol, dont you have a pet? its pretty obvious
______________
seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

that's what i'm saying. it only understands the tone of your voice, it doesn't understand what you're saying.......i dunno...
'Anyone got any hot sisters they wanna sell?'
-skipimp_

*Proud Member of the HoBum Posse

religion is cool.


'One day I'm going to learn something i swear'

Earth isn't the only planet w/ life, they've already found evidence of bacteria on mars I believe.

I don't know how you'd monitor it in animals, there's no practical way to do it, you'd just have to monitor it forever, or until you see the prayer like activity.

As far as the estroadinary power of prayer and brain activity... gosh, we can make this even more complicated, and I can start talking about the placebo effect of prayer and how it explain it through the excitation of biophotons in the body which drive a lot of biochemical processes... if you ask for it, I'll type that up.

'If your morals make you weary, depend upon it, they are wrong.'

I try to live as a decent person, I've looked into the religon thing and it doesn't work for me. Sometimes I would love to have faith and believe in some supreme being, but I can't and I don't. I can't force myself into believing something.

If you show me 5 fingers and tell me that there are only 4, I'm still going to see 5.


In all of this thread, I'm really suprised that no one has tried to mess about with infinity. Nipe touched on thruth for a moment there, and that's when I believe Philosophy comes in. The argument that there is no universal truth, no fundamental truth

or any truth at all.











*yawn*

There is no way a human could ever comprehend the way a dog thinks or acts, what it is thinking about and how it is thinking it or portraying what it is thinking through actions. It's just stupid and arrogant to think that we can. And maybe dogs can't comprehend religion, what's so stupid about that?? Sure they understand what you're saying but that is only through tone, rewards and punishments, nothing else.

And I'm pretty sure that there is life on other planets that exceeds little microscopic bacteria. That's the thing with people on this planet, we're so irrogant, arrogant and self glorified that we think we're the center of the universe. I think it would be pretty crazy to have this huge ass universe and us the only planet with life on it. Maybe we're the only proper life in this galaxy but out there in the depths of space there must be something else.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

Heres another point to bring up. If intelligent life was found on other planets. Organized religion would fall apart. Correct? or could it adapt?

I think personally it might fall apart. Or perhaps alien religions might seep into normal life.
-Andy

Attack of the Killer Stop Sign!

Proud member of the resurrected PPP

why on earth would it fall apart Andy??

Who's to say that God isn't doing stuff for them as well?? Who's to say that they don't have their own bible?? Saying that organised religion would fall apart is just stupid man. Think about it.


~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

this brings up the age old question, what made god... all i gots to say

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

I mean current orgainzed religion... I had a HUGE paragraph written but then somemone IMed and I closed the browser by accident, damnit...

Gravteck, you wana continue this, I'm too frustrated to type it out again.


-Andy

Attack of the Killer Stop Sign!

Proud member of the resurrected PPP

hmm when you guys talk about entropy (which I didn't notice before) you're talking about it in the wrong sense. entropy isn't that everything in the world breaks down and becomes less complex. it's that on average thing become less ordered. It's like building a wall, more ordered. But the food that it takes to feed the worker and the gas used for the car to move the bricks creates creates more disorder through converting matter into heat than the order that is created by the wall...

Entropy and Evolution are unrelated.

the only religion that I think would be destroyed by finding life on other planets is Literal catholicism where they believe that every word is true and not a story. I've got a question for anyone that believes in literal interpretation, Noah didn't put 2 of each type of animal on his boat, it's impossible, so if that isn't taken literally then why should adam and eve be taken literally? (someone please answer this)

But I think all other religions would remain the same with the finding of new lifeforms. can anyone name one that wouldn't?
-Mike

'Isn't 14 legal for everyone?' - Dave Pauls

Noah put 2 of every unclean animal and 7 of every clean animal on the ark i believe. And that is completely possible. Adaptations arent even in the picture yet. Sure we have thousands apon thousands of different kinds of animals now, but they all adapted over time. Not mutated, but adapted. Also, fish and animals in the sea didnt have to go into the ark, they were already in the water..it was only land animals that needed to be in the ark.


and to witchbaby about truth...the belief that there is no truth is rediculous. there HAS to be a truth. If there was no truth about our origin then it would be impossible for us to be here. Having that belief is just avoiding the fact that the truth could be possibly something you dont want to believe in.
______________
seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

suposedly this happened a couple thousand yeas ago(im really not clear cause i am not religious)but were talkin evolution which ha had millions upon millions of yearsto evolve. now this i where it gets kinda crooked, the wrld is afuckin big place. to travel around to gather at east 2 of ever animal would result in a gargantuine amount of animals, which would require on bigo fuckin boat like we have never seen before or could possibly build. physics and trig and calc come into play. the structural limits of any boat present or past, metal or wood, could not belare enogh nor strong enough to hold theamount of anials and its weight. remember, ths s only couple thosand years ago, i think, so there would be near as many or more species of animal then there are now, depending on on stuff. going back to the world being a big place, how woud you ever be able to travel to the far reaches of the earth to retreive animals. the possiniities, well there aren't any. its physically impossibe
......

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

Who's to say they even knew about the other parts of the world?? America wasn't discovered until only a few hundred years ago. Who's to say people and animals didn't just exist on one continent. Until a few hundred years ago people thought that Europe was all there was to the world.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

yes.. but europe, too, is still large. most of it is land locked. cant imagine hearding every animal withen to water or to the boat thing. sounds obserd

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

to madd trix:

the likeliness (sp) of earth being to only planet in the universe with life on it is uncomprehensibly small. the reason we don't see any other forms of intelligent life is the probability of our (humans and other species from outer worlds) times matching up. Take this for an example..

Let's say in 500 years humans have the technology to travel to other stars, or even other galaxies. The probability of seeing other intelligent forms of life in those star systems is highly unlikely. Also, other forms of life may have come to our solar system far before any complex forms of life were devoloped on earth. so the aliens just kept on truckin to other star systems. What i'm trying to say here is that the porprotion of the age of the universe to the age of human life is very very small. Humans have been around for a very very very uncomprehensibly small amount of time compared to the age of the universe.

So the probability of our times (humans time in the universe and the aliens time in the universe)to 'match up' to discover one another is incredibly small. So, I do believe that their are many different forms of life other than Earth based life, but the probability of us discovering aleins in another star system or galaxy is very very small.
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

also to madd_trix:

the way i look at the answer to the question of the beggining of the universe is this; everything could just be how it is, and it's as simple as that. it's hard to explain, but people go to God for answers like how the universe began. And if that way works for them then so be it. But being agnostic, as I am, I just look that the begining of the universe in a more simple way; it just happened, and the questions just have be left unanswered. Everything about life is just the way it is, it's just the way it all came to be. How humans came to be, how our solar system and galaxy formed. It just all happened for no explained reason. But I'm very thankful that it all happened, for I am here today breathing and living life.

'Some questions about life and its origins have to be left unanswered.'
-----------------------
peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

thats the way to go... it happened, whatever it may be, and im here, keepin it simple

-Grant-

Chicken Wang?

2 or even 7 animals or people is not substantial enough to create a world, let alone local, population. So in 6,000 to 5,000 years all of the species of the world evolved in all places of the world including isolated regions. mutations occur so slowly that there would be... well, no change in 5,000 years. If you talk to a pure breed dog breeder they'll tell you why you have to start importing dogs from other areas of the world as studs. But Some people say it happened 200,000 years ago so that changes everything... but that goes against the bible in the 'begats'. If the ark ended up on the top of arafat mountain then where did all the water go? I've looked at answers for this and they are all ludicris they all try and say that the earth shifted rapidly during the flood... they admit that rapid shifting would cause earthquakes... then massive tsunamis would be made that could crush a boat that was only 45ft (30 cubits) tall (so it probably stuck out of the water 20ft or so.

Sorry but there is no way that the story is completely correct. Something similar may have happened but the exact details are not in the bible, many other religions have a flood story too (they should make you guys take world religions, it's mandatory for us) I'm not trying to make you part with believeing in Jesus/God. If you believe that the storys in the old testament are full of good values and are true word for word then the only thing that changes is the belief that they are 100% true, the morals of them remain the same.
-Mike

'Isn't 14 legal for everyone?' - Dave Pauls

Skibum1080: You just prooved my point. You said 'what if the world and universe were all just there?' People ask where God came from. What if he was 'just there'?

And as for the flood, it covered the entire world, that is an astronomical amount of water. But then you have to remember, the world changes, mountains wouldn't have been as high either. But all the water came in 30 days of rain, why can't it leave?? All the floods that we have in the world today all come and then drain away. How's this any different?? It's just a lot more water, maybe it went into the ground, evaporated, or both and then the oceans were just higher, but most probably God told it to go away and did. yeah, laugh at that if you will but it's probably what happened but the bible says that the water levels subsided and then Noah got drunk.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

skibum1080 i with you on those last two posts. It it would be so difficult to explain why and when existence started, not just life but i mean existence of anything. Just as difficult is to say it's been around for infinity. Infinity is hard for humans to comprehend methinks. Taken a somewhat existentialist view on things, I think that existance, and especially life, are absurd. I don't think it was chosen to happen by a god, but pretty much it started by chance, only goverened in it's development by laws that our universe still abides to. The chances that earth would form and develop exactly as it did and that life would somehow develop as it did are ridiculously small, but that doesn't make me claim there to be concious control behind it all.

I don't know if it's wise to say what im about to, partyl because it brings whole new shit into the thread, and partly cuz i don't know if i can expres it very well, but i'll try:

Your conciousness, everything you are, all your memories and beliefs. Changing a few things like forgeting a memory doesn't change who are are does it, you would still be you. Now im not saying 'being you' means like your personality and shit like that, but your entire conciousness. For example some people may think that cloning yourself would mean you can live forever as that clone. Imagine the clone was zapped into being in a cloning machine (let's not get into how it would work or why). At the exact point in time that the clone was created, you and it would be exactly the same, in body but more importantly in mind. Your conciousnesses woudl be identical. BUT after an infinitely short amount of time, you woudl no longer be the same person. Wow this is so hard to explain the more i type about it the harder i see it is.

ok that was a crap example. Think of it like this: What are teh chances that you (again, not your appearance and shit, but your conciousness) camme into being. Your characteristics and physical make up rest upon what sperm beat the rest, but 'you', your self awareness, your conciousness, surely could have been one of infinite. I reallllly hope someone knows wot im on about and that no one mis interprets this. But what im tryig to say is that your mind could have been any one of infinite possible ones, only one of whihc would make you and your self awareness. This is why existence is absurd and totally ridiculous. Im not saying it isnt worth while, but because of all the chances involved it shoudl never have happened. Especially what ive been talking about, how it is like an infinitely small chance that 'I' would coem into conciouss being, soit should never have happened shoul it.

hmm. i hope someone knows wot im talking about. When i rule the world im gonna invent a lanuage that will be able to express anything with ease. But until then, I hope that made sense...

--Joe

its real easy to explain how the water left. adding to what tim said, there is obvious evidence for an ice age. The flood water was dirty, obviously, and dirty water promotes quick erosion of whatever it travels over. This is how things like the grand canyon which is said to have took millions of years to form could have took days, because of so much water and the force of it. During the flood and afterwards the earth shifted, continents moved, and volcanos erupted. When the flood waters came, it came from the sky, and the 'great fountains of the deep erupted', meaning underground water. All the water that left the earth after the flood drained away when the continents moved,...actually one very supported theory is that the water canopy that is over the earth in the atmosphere is evaporated water from the flood. Now, with all the volcanic eruptions and changes to the earth, the earth's atmostphere became clouded and that is how the ice age came about. All that water froze in the icecaps and has been slowly melting ever since. The rest of the water is in the canopy in the atmosphere.
AND..all the animals could have fit in the ark, who says they all had to be full size? they could have all been babies..we dont know.
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seth

Fairygirl: Why must you be so damn good looking? Why?? lol
nipe: Thats right Diabhal, because we're skiers

Re: Noah's ark etc.

A good explanation for the flood and the whole story behind it can be read briefly here

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/theory.html

i had seen a TV programme about it too, and it makes sense. Note that it was estimated to have happened around 12,000 years ago, giving plenty of time to ensure that no one in living memory of the flood could testify against the Christian's story, 10,000 years later.

As for the ice age things, they happen periodically and regularly for many reasons. A main contributor is the slight chnges in Earth's orbit round the sun which can alter average temperateres enough to cause an ice age. Hear that guys? all we need is a HUGE assed rocket to pus the earth a bit further form teh sun and we can ski all year round. ill get started on teh plans.

PhattTim, i was trying to say that teh universe just happened, it just started for some reason that no one can answer. i meant to say that it all started without the help of a higher being; that it just all of the sudden, out of complete total nothingness, it just all came to be, somehow and some way, it just did. the questions of why and how this happened are just not meant to be answered.
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peace--->chris
***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse

Why are they not meant to be answered?? Accepting that would be like accepting defeat. How could the universe just appear from nothing and all of a sudden be there, there's no explanation for it at all. So you mean that one second there is total nothingness, and then all of a sudden, one second later there is this vast array of beautiful galaxies and planets and cosmic dust, comets, asteroids, black holes, stuff like that? I don't think so.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~
#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#
*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*
@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

I think that no matter what side of this argument you are on, you have to agree that there has to be SOME sort of explanation for everything. Tim is right when he says that by saying we will never find out what is like admitting defeat. It is HUMAN NATURE to be so curious as to find out. Saying we will never figure out what happened is going against Human Nature.

-Andy

Attack of the Killer Stop Sign!

Proud member of the resurrected PPP

phattim: no it didnt happen that suddenly the universe we see today was formed. It was just a sea of protons and neutrons (how they came to be is deeper still). Hydrogen was formed in the first 10 minutes after teh big bang, making it the most abundant element in the universe. As stars formed over millions of years, helium was formed as the product of their fusion. Huge cosmin events like super novas and shit formed heavier elements. Then im sure you have been told how planets form - just the atoms atracted together by gravity form a huge mass. Simple as that really. Well ofcourse it isnt just that simple, if huge assed books can be written on it, it can't be that simple. But thats the gist of it. And to me it's a whole lot more plausable than some dude wishing it into being.